Squadron 'Uncles'
Lady Wyatt - I was an former pilot, returned to the RAF as an administrator after 11 years as a civvie (and TA), and was posted to Binbrook. Your Dad was one of the first Lightning pilots I met there, and over a period of more than 2 years was avgreat help and support - one of the loveliest of men. You should be, and I am sure are, very proud of him.
I was thinking that repaying your lump sum might put recent;y retired people off
Originally Posted by Party Animal
Sorry airpolice, I am unfamiliar with the FTRS set up. Are you saying that if I retired at 55 with my lump sum and pension and then joined back up as FTRS until aged 60, I would have to pay back my entire lump sum?
Lady W,
I, too, knew your Dad over many years. When you wrote the phrase "my dear chap" many fine memories flooded back. Furz was indeed a splendid fellow - you can be justifiably proud of who he was and what he achieved.
I, too, knew your Dad over many years. When you wrote the phrase "my dear chap" many fine memories flooded back. Furz was indeed a splendid fellow - you can be justifiably proud of who he was and what he achieved.
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Not only do you have to repay some (most) of your lump, if you join ftrs within a year (or possibly two) but they take into account what "they" are paying you in pension and deduct that from the pay for the new job.
So don't go thinking that you can retire, spend the lump and live off the monthly money, then get a job at the same pay as you were on before, that's not how it works.
So don't go thinking that you can retire, spend the lump and live off the monthly money, then get a job at the same pay as you were on before, that's not how it works.
Thread Starter
Airpolice
That is a very misleading post!
If you are on AFPS75 you can keep your lump sum whenever you have left.
If you are on AFPS05 you have some tricky sums to work out depending on when you left - try googling "AFPS 05 remployment" and look for an MMP document in PDF.
As for you cannot get a job at the same pay as as before - yes you can! What you can't do is earn more with your salary and pension combined. If you were a Flt Lt and became a Sqn Ldr then you would have all your pension abated, but you would still be paid the FULL Sqn Ldr wage, regardless of what you were paid before.
Lady W, +1 on your old man - he was a top bloke and I will forever have a kind thought for him in my mind. Such a sad loss and I hope he is at the gates with St Peter and welcomes me with a hand shake and "My dear chap!".
LJ
MMP here http://www.raf.mod.uk/community/getm...662EFFE6F3C308
That is a very misleading post!
If you are on AFPS75 you can keep your lump sum whenever you have left.
If you are on AFPS05 you have some tricky sums to work out depending on when you left - try googling "AFPS 05 remployment" and look for an MMP document in PDF.
As for you cannot get a job at the same pay as as before - yes you can! What you can't do is earn more with your salary and pension combined. If you were a Flt Lt and became a Sqn Ldr then you would have all your pension abated, but you would still be paid the FULL Sqn Ldr wage, regardless of what you were paid before.
Lady W, +1 on your old man - he was a top bloke and I will forever have a kind thought for him in my mind. Such a sad loss and I hope he is at the gates with St Peter and welcomes me with a hand shake and "My dear chap!".
LJ
MMP here http://www.raf.mod.uk/community/getm...662EFFE6F3C308
If I have this correct, lets look at the example of someone who retires at 55 on AFPS05 conditions. Let's say their pension is 50% of their final salary.
Give it the necessary month or more, and they rejoin as FTRS. They revert to the salary they were on before. So, compared to staying retired, or getting a second job, they are now working a 40+ hr week for only effectively an extra half the salary they were on before. For example.
Final salary £70,000
Pension £35,000
Option 1 - Retired:
0 hrs worked
£35,000 income
Options for second career, possible part time work, increased family and leisure time, etc
Option 2 - Rejoin as FTRS:
40+ hrs worked
£70,000 income
When you look at things like NI, higher rate tax brackets, etc, going back to work as FTRS probably means you actually only increase your net take home pay by about a third.
I would suggest in this scenario you would have to really love the job to go the FTRS route!
Give it the necessary month or more, and they rejoin as FTRS. They revert to the salary they were on before. So, compared to staying retired, or getting a second job, they are now working a 40+ hr week for only effectively an extra half the salary they were on before. For example.
Final salary £70,000
Pension £35,000
Option 1 - Retired:
0 hrs worked
£35,000 income
Options for second career, possible part time work, increased family and leisure time, etc
Option 2 - Rejoin as FTRS:
40+ hrs worked
£70,000 income
When you look at things like NI, higher rate tax brackets, etc, going back to work as FTRS probably means you actually only increase your net take home pay by about a third.
I would suggest in this scenario you would have to really love the job to go the FTRS route!
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Effect on EDP Lump Sum
If you rejoin the Regular Armed
Forces voluntarily or accept an FTRS
appointment without a break of at
least the period represented by the
EDP lump sum you will have to pay
back the ‘unexpired’ proportion. This
means that if your EDP lump sum
was of equivalent value to 12 months’
pay, and you rejoined the Armed
Forces after six months, you would
have to pay back half of the lump sum.
If you rejoin the Regular Armed
Forces voluntarily or accept an FTRS
appointment without a break of at
least the period represented by the
EDP lump sum you will have to pay
back the ‘unexpired’ proportion. This
means that if your EDP lump sum
was of equivalent value to 12 months’
pay, and you rejoined the Armed
Forces after six months, you would
have to pay back half of the lump sum.
you should also be aware of th edifferent "status" of FTRS terms of service: No quarter, no family medical etc. It's not like joining again, it's actually more like working in a different air force, except you still get dicked for sec duties and sdo and guard commander and whatever else comes your way.
Basically, in the previous example;
Retire and have £35,000 a year, then take a £40,000 a year job with Tesco, who will pay you, and keep your pension & lump sum, OR
Pay back a chunk of your lump sum, take up an FTRS post, and they use the pension payment (that you were already getting) to pay you for working.
Last edited by airpolice; 19th Dec 2013 at 21:37. Reason: Clarification and example.
Once again using the example figures I used in my previous post....
Given that you don't pay NI on a pension, then a pension of £35,000 actually represents the take home pay of a salary of £39,800 (lets call it £40k to make life easy).
Therefore, a 55 year old retiree on a £35,000 pension would only need to find a job paying £30,000 to have the same take home pay as they would if they rejoined as FTRS on £70,000.
This might not be possible, or they might not want to work that hard, but even a part time or low paid job pulling in £15-20k would mean very little drop in life style. Indeed, as I said before, given the upper tax band effect and not paying NI, doing nothing and retiring permanently would result in a drop in take home pay of nearer a third than a half.
In summary, I think it highly unlikely that many 55 year olds will consider rejoining as FTRS. It simply doesn't make sense, there is very little financial incentive.
I did know an ex Wg Cdr and ex Gp Capt who rejoined as FTRS Flt Lts. They were both younger than 55, one considerably so. Here the numbers would be very different, and I'm sure it made financial sense. However, one of the biggest draws for both of them was that they returned to flying and Sqn life.
The FTRS Sqn uncle posts under discussion are non flying posts.
Given that you don't pay NI on a pension, then a pension of £35,000 actually represents the take home pay of a salary of £39,800 (lets call it £40k to make life easy).
Therefore, a 55 year old retiree on a £35,000 pension would only need to find a job paying £30,000 to have the same take home pay as they would if they rejoined as FTRS on £70,000.
This might not be possible, or they might not want to work that hard, but even a part time or low paid job pulling in £15-20k would mean very little drop in life style. Indeed, as I said before, given the upper tax band effect and not paying NI, doing nothing and retiring permanently would result in a drop in take home pay of nearer a third than a half.
In summary, I think it highly unlikely that many 55 year olds will consider rejoining as FTRS. It simply doesn't make sense, there is very little financial incentive.
I did know an ex Wg Cdr and ex Gp Capt who rejoined as FTRS Flt Lts. They were both younger than 55, one considerably so. Here the numbers would be very different, and I'm sure it made financial sense. However, one of the biggest draws for both of them was that they returned to flying and Sqn life.
The FTRS Sqn uncle posts under discussion are non flying posts.
Wow, you guys are very negative about the FTRS deal. There are plenty of benefits, but you seem hell bent on only pointing out the negative ones and being quite misleading about some of the effects. Perhaps it depends upon the job you do as FTRS?
I know of several FTRS pilots who are more than happy flying and not vegetating at home. They get to keep fit (fitness tests), they DO get HTD, they get paid to fly, have Dining-In Nights, no SDO, certainly no Guard Commander (where did that come from?), sqn camaraderie, expeds etc etc.
Or they could be working at Tesco's. Hmmm, let me consider that for a minute.
It may not suit you guys but it certainly suits others.
I know of several FTRS pilots who are more than happy flying and not vegetating at home. They get to keep fit (fitness tests), they DO get HTD, they get paid to fly, have Dining-In Nights, no SDO, certainly no Guard Commander (where did that come from?), sqn camaraderie, expeds etc etc.
Or they could be working at Tesco's. Hmmm, let me consider that for a minute.
It may not suit you guys but it certainly suits others.
As I've just said, the Sqn Uncle posts under discussion are non flying roles, and I'm fully aware that some people would welcome the chance to continue flying, or start again!
As for Dining-In nights, Sqn camaraderie, expeds, etc - while all a bonus, one has to consider how effective a retention/recruitment pull they really are, given:
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...inability.html
Regarding retirement, it doesn't have to equate to "vegetating at home". Whether you spend your retirement doing that, or instead enjoy yourself doing whatever floats your boat, is in your own hands.
You also obviously have no idea of what goes on in the back of a Tesco's store!
I made the last bit up!!
But you would get a discount on your groceries!!
As for Dining-In nights, Sqn camaraderie, expeds, etc - while all a bonus, one has to consider how effective a retention/recruitment pull they really are, given:
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...inability.html
Regarding retirement, it doesn't have to equate to "vegetating at home". Whether you spend your retirement doing that, or instead enjoy yourself doing whatever floats your boat, is in your own hands.
You also obviously have no idea of what goes on in the back of a Tesco's store!
I made the last bit up!!
But you would get a discount on your groceries!!
Last edited by Biggus; 20th Dec 2013 at 08:57.
Yep - FTRS obviously works for many people, particularly if they can fly and live close to work etc...
However, the Aircrew Sustainability note suggests that Manning are going to create a whole load more FTRS slots across the board. If a 55 year old 'bean stealer' living in the mess at High Wycombe or Northwood suddenly has to start paying to do so, then it will be interesting to see who fills the posts.
Progress or desperation?
However, the Aircrew Sustainability note suggests that Manning are going to create a whole load more FTRS slots across the board. If a 55 year old 'bean stealer' living in the mess at High Wycombe or Northwood suddenly has to start paying to do so, then it will be interesting to see who fills the posts.
Progress or desperation?
Ah Biggus, methinks you posted as I was typing, and I absolutely agree with this.....
I love flying, which is why I've not had a ground tour in over 20 years and didn't go the promotion route and I don't relish the thought of not flying when I reach 55yo, so I guess I will be making the quite obviously poor financial decision to apply for a FTRS flying job in a few years time.
As you say.....whatever floats your boat.
Originally Posted by Biggus
Regarding retirement, it doesn't have to equate to "vegetating at home". Whether you spend your retirement doing that, or instead enjoy yourself doing whatever floats your boat, is in your own hands.
I love flying, which is why I've not had a ground tour in over 20 years and didn't go the promotion route and I don't relish the thought of not flying when I reach 55yo, so I guess I will be making the quite obviously poor financial decision to apply for a FTRS flying job in a few years time.
As you say.....whatever floats your boat.
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I've just signed on for a 3 year FTRS contract after retiring at 55. I'm not doing it for the financial gain, I'm doing it because I can continue to do a job that I love, with a great group of people.
Not everything is defined by ££££'s.
Not everything is defined by ££££'s.
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HTD and No SDO
HTD - always told it isn't payable to FTRS -something to do with no upheaval such as posting/relocation.
No SDO? Must mean someone else is covering then as that could only be a local management call!
No SDO? Must mean someone else is covering then as that could only be a local management call!
Daf H,
Good for you, but I would suggest that for many, "love of the job" only goes so far:
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...inability.html
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...retention.html
The very fact that there is FTRS flying slot available for you to apply for is an indication that many don't feel the way you do!
Good for you, but I would suggest that for many, "love of the job" only goes so far:
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...inability.html
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...retention.html
The very fact that there is FTRS flying slot available for you to apply for is an indication that many don't feel the way you do!
Last edited by Biggus; 20th Dec 2013 at 15:53.