Is RAF training all it's cracked up to be...?
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Is RAF training all it's cracked up to be...?
The RAF is very selective in who it recruits, especially for officer and aircrew. Candidates are usually pretty fit, well educated and with useful team and leadership skills. Potential aircrew have to have 'flying aptitude' and are tested for that skillset. Maybe 1 in 20 applicants gets through.
Of those selected for aircrew, maybe 1 in 10 completes the course and reaches operational standard.
If the selection process is valid then why are 90% of those who 'pass' failing? Is it to do with poor quality training?
Having lit the blue touchpaper, I shall now retire to a safe distance...
Of those selected for aircrew, maybe 1 in 10 completes the course and reaches operational standard.
If the selection process is valid then why are 90% of those who 'pass' failing? Is it to do with poor quality training?
Having lit the blue touchpaper, I shall now retire to a safe distance...
It is a bit odd to start a thread with an unsupported statement of failure rate and then 'retire to safe distance'.
From that distance can you hear us all shout something about you making the statistics up???
From that distance can you hear us all shout something about you making the statistics up???
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Well the figures are a matter of record rather than opinion. No doubt someone will produce them here.
...although that someone isn't lj; thanks but no thanks for your link. You're right, it doesn't support the OP's assertion but, to save anyone else scanning all those tables, it doesn't disprove it either, or indeed shine any useful light on the subject.
...although that someone isn't lj; thanks but no thanks for your link. You're right, it doesn't support the OP's assertion but, to save anyone else scanning all those tables, it doesn't disprove it either, or indeed shine any useful light on the subject.
Last edited by ShotOne; 9th Dec 2013 at 21:04.
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Not exactly statistically significant, but on my own course at BFTS (old system circa 80s) there were 6 of us, one vw'd, the rest all completed training & became operational, not necessarily FJ but on something. So a long way from 90% failure, but perhaps the 10% figure is referring to the FJ stream only?
Whilst RAF training has been cut back significantly in recent years & is no longer 'training for excellence' I do believe that the original hypothesis
is overly pessimistic.
Whilst RAF training has been cut back significantly in recent years & is no longer 'training for excellence' I do believe that the original hypothesis
Is RAF training all it's cracked up to be...?
It should be that selective and hard that require people to give their all to be there.
Frankly that is better than having a wishy washy group of people who only in their position because affirmative action and gender quotas.
When I see an RAF aircraft I want to know that person flying it worked their
off to get there.
I want to respect the people doing it because they are the best of the best, not the best of the mediocre selected to meet a quota.
Frankly that is better than having a wishy washy group of people who only in their position because affirmative action and gender quotas.
When I see an RAF aircraft I want to know that person flying it worked their
off to get there.I want to respect the people doing it because they are the best of the best, not the best of the mediocre selected to meet a quota.
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i met a few that were far from the best of the best too. As in all walks of life, standard vary.
Similar to Ken, my BFTS course of 10 (Graduates, so 100+ hrs Bulldog already) yielded 6 FJ pilots, 3 truckie pilots and an FJ Nav QWI. The guy chopped was, by his own admission, lazy. A fault he promptly remedied on Nav training. I had 3 guys chopped off my AFTS, all of whom were glad as it stopped them killing themselves due to lack of capacity. They all qualified as ME pilots. The pilot chopped off my OCU course was for lack of aggression, which he acknowledged. He went back to ME (it was the second time he'd been chopped on an FJ OCU, so they gave him a fair chance).
All in all, I thought it a fantastic training system. It certainly made me what I am now. I am now a qualified instructor/teacher/lecturer in 5 different fields, rated exceptional in all of them, and I draw on my RAF experiences every day.
All in all, I thought it a fantastic training system. It certainly made me what I am now. I am now a qualified instructor/teacher/lecturer in 5 different fields, rated exceptional in all of them, and I draw on my RAF experiences every day.
Last edited by Fox3WheresMyBanana; 9th Dec 2013 at 23:59.
The RAF is very selective in who it recruits, especially for officer and aircrew.
Having been part of the training system, albeit a few decades ago, the thought of only 10% of those selected finally graduating whould have lead to a major overhaul of the selection process. Such an ubsubstantiated figure is highly improbable.
C&B,
Quite an aggressive opening post. Perhaps if you were to offer a little honesty about your intent I might be able to help, as others here have already done. I was an instructor in the system and, later, SO1 Training at Group. Happy to help if I understand the question you're asking.
Best regards,
Courtney
Quite an aggressive opening post. Perhaps if you were to offer a little honesty about your intent I might be able to help, as others here have already done. I was an instructor in the system and, later, SO1 Training at Group. Happy to help if I understand the question you're asking.
Best regards,
Courtney
Can some self loading freight chuck in a penny worth chaps ? I spent 5000+ hours on various variations of Hercules operations, all, being driven by aircrew for whom I had the highest respect, as to capabilities. As I hope they had for my ability to mend the beast when they broke it. Particularly during operations in Bosnia and Iraq, where, the meaning of crew and professionalism came to the fore. I doubt there are many Air forces who apply such rigid demands to their trainee aircrew, and I for one could never knock the system, although like many, I met a few (of a all ranks) during my time who may have had "personality" problems. OK maybe it was me all along. I think the intent of the OP is valid in querying if such streaming is valid in an age where many will be flying their aircraft from a desk in Nevada, or Waddo, but in the RAF I served in, I believe that the correct people were occupying the correct seats in Auntie Bettie's Aircraft.
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Well I think I will follow in the same spirit as the OP's tenuous linkage to stats:
I was utterly brilliant in my service career. The RAF's training regime must have been outstanding
Tom (tongue firmly in cheek)
I was utterly brilliant in my service career. The RAF's training regime must have been outstanding
Tom (tongue firmly in cheek)
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Yes, it must have been damned good to get me through, to a standard where I was good enough for almost two decades of military flying. I never did a ground tour.
I never been in a ground job since, as a civvie, for the last eighteen years, nor have I ever been unemployed.
I never been in a ground job since, as a civvie, for the last eighteen years, nor have I ever been unemployed.
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the pass rate is driven by the number of aircrew required - if we needed to have a 1000 bomber force a lot of the people who currently fail would pass
if we finish up with 5 F-35's it's going to be very very competitive...................
if we finish up with 5 F-35's it's going to be very very competitive...................
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I was utterly brilliant in my service career. The RAF's training regime must have been outstanding
I've never looked at it that way, that the guys who finished up poleing the Harrier, Lightning et al were the cream of the crop but I suppose they must have been. Well done you lot.
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Delighted to hear it, Dave, but the quality of the end product is not in dispute (even by the rather punchy OP). What has been questioned is the wastage rate to achieve that.
Great to see that low self-esteem (..."rated exceptional in all of them") isn't a serious problem in the modern Air Force!
Great to see that low self-esteem (..."rated exceptional in all of them") isn't a serious problem in the modern Air Force!
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The RAF has never been known for its lack of self confidence.
People can't be right all of the time of course but luckily for the forum I am and part of my role is to correct those who aren't..
People can't be right all of the time of course but luckily for the forum I am and part of my role is to correct those who aren't..
The "failure" rate was also influenced by economics as well. Just ask the trainees who were shown the redundancy door. Go back to early nineties for some, there was no option if they didn't make the grade for FJ.
I'm a product of the 80's aircrew training system. At a guess, I would say about 35% were chopped between day one and combat ready status. Some of these were at IOT, then basics, then advanced, then OCU. Generally, there would be a remedial package of training followed by a recourse. Two strikes of failure put individuals on a very fine knife edge between further training or out.
My impression was that this process softened during the 90's. The OASC selection process was deemed to be faultless and therefore failures in training were not due to students not being capable, it was the fault of the training package. The result was to keep training people until they eventually passed.
As a former OCU instructor, I have to honestly say that some of the newly badged students coming through would not have made it in my day. The very real threat of being chopped ultimately led to survival of the fittest. Once the word 'chop' was removed from the training lexicon, students relaxed far too early. Of course, there were many quality students who would have always made the grade - but there were a few who ultimately were always going to struggle.
My impression was that this process softened during the 90's. The OASC selection process was deemed to be faultless and therefore failures in training were not due to students not being capable, it was the fault of the training package. The result was to keep training people until they eventually passed.
As a former OCU instructor, I have to honestly say that some of the newly badged students coming through would not have made it in my day. The very real threat of being chopped ultimately led to survival of the fittest. Once the word 'chop' was removed from the training lexicon, students relaxed far too early. Of course, there were many quality students who would have always made the grade - but there were a few who ultimately were always going to struggle.