New opportunity to give 4 years service for nothing
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Cheers
I share your well-honed scepticism but in this case the individuals can still walk at their original IPP. If someone at Manning thinks that the recent significant shortfall of PAS acceptance can be cured by offering less(!) then the lunatics have taken over….
…ok, I see your point.
…ok, I see your point.
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Where's my letter?
Having not received my letter and expecting to at some point, the DIB states 2 months to decide on the extension from receipt of the letter whereas comments on here suggest that the letter only gives until 31 Jan 14 to make a decision (pre PAS boarding as mentioned previously - funny that). Which takes precedence, DIB or letter?
Also, I am very surprised at the lack of comment on this thread seeing as almost 100% of JO's on a PC (any branch/pension scheme) and some NCA/OR's expecting to leave after 1 Apr 15 are affected by this offer. Is that because the yoof don't use Prune anymore?
Also, I am very surprised at the lack of comment on this thread seeing as almost 100% of JO's on a PC (any branch/pension scheme) and some NCA/OR's expecting to leave after 1 Apr 15 are affected by this offer. Is that because the yoof don't use Prune anymore?
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Turbinetoohot
Sorry, no access to interweb for a few days. The IBN says this wrt the original exit date:
Sorry, no access to interweb for a few days. The IBN says this wrt the original exit date:
Impact on Officers’ Optional Retirement Dates
Where officers accept the OTE, their previous EED will become an Optional Retirement Date (ORD). If they are subsequently promoted they will gain an additional ORD at the 20/40 point. These ORDs will be deferrable as per AP3993 Vol 1 para 7318 . Officers wishing to exercise an ORD must give a minimum of one year’s notice to RAF Manning
Where officers accept the OTE, their previous EED will become an Optional Retirement Date (ORD). If they are subsequently promoted they will gain an additional ORD at the 20/40 point. These ORDs will be deferrable as per AP3993 Vol 1 para 7318 . Officers wishing to exercise an ORD must give a minimum of one year’s notice to RAF Manning
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Charlie Mike and others - this isnt just aimed at Aircrew you know. This has nothing to do with capturing you, so you don't get any PAS or FRIs or some other incentive to retain you. This isn't a clever ploy by Manning, they aint that clever!! and far from it with some of the Desk Officers you meet, but a tri-Service offer endorsed by the SofS and Treasury.
It just so happens that the new pension scheme happens to cause this blip - whilst the sums may not be massive in terms of increasing your pension, if it wasn't offered you would all be screaming like little girls that it wasn't fair.
Take it for what it is - a genuine offer to extend, if you want, in order to meet the new pension caveats. For what it is worth, it is actually quite generous in these austere money saving times - the bean counters could have taken it as another potential saving!!
It just so happens that the new pension scheme happens to cause this blip - whilst the sums may not be massive in terms of increasing your pension, if it wasn't offered you would all be screaming like little girls that it wasn't fair.
Take it for what it is - a genuine offer to extend, if you want, in order to meet the new pension caveats. For what it is worth, it is actually quite generous in these austere money saving times - the bean counters could have taken it as another potential saving!!
I agree with Junket that this OTE is not Manning led - in fact I would suggest that they have just seen their future manning plots blown out of the water just before the Christmas break. I also agree that is not Aircrew specific however it does raise interesting issues for both Aircrew and Manning.
I've spent the past few days playing with the pensions calculator and I just cannot see how the OTE appeals to the majority of two winged master race. Please allow me to explain:
Opt 1: Stay to 20/40 point and then leave.
Accept an OTE means that you will simply stay on a self-imposed pay freeze as a Level 9, topped out Flt Lt. Unless you have a plan to do something life/career enhancing within those 4yrs, you are simply going to return to Civvy life 4yrs older. Yes, you may get a bit more if you reach State Pension Age (whatever that will eventually be as it can change under AFPS15). If you're off to the airlines then you may be 4yrs older but do you have anything more to show for it?
Opt 2: Stay to 38/16 point then leave.
In which case you could enter your civvy career and be 4yrs more senior with 4yrs more paid into your civvy pension fund before your ex-colleagues who accepted OTE join you.
Opt 3: 20/40 point then PAS to 55.
Ok, so your 38/16 point becomes an 'Optional Retirement Date' but you can bet your bottom dollar that any future PAS offer will be based on your EED which will now be 4 years later. So in essence, you are now topped out Flt Lt for another 4yrs before transferring to PAS, with a minimum ROS of a further 5yrs. So, if you were not happy with PAS and wished to leave after 5yrs, you are now looking towards late-forties before you can try and forge a second career. That is far from ideal. In the meantime, you will be tied into the RAF for a total of 9yrs from what would have been your original 38/16 EED.
Opt 4: 38/16 point then PAS to 55.
Start PAS at your 38/16 point on a new payscale with a minimum of 5yrs service. This means that you will have been progressing through the PAS pay scale, earned your 4yrs service under AFPS15 to qualify for EDP etc and, if you're not happy, leave after 5yrs to forge a second career.
So, in essence, if you want to create a second career as a civilian then you won't particularly want an OTE. If you want PAS with a view to remaining to 55 then you don't want to accept an OTE and if you're intending to go PAS and leave after 5yrs then you definitely don't want to accept an OTE.
I can only think that you might accept it if you are already waiting / expecting to sit in an Airline Pool for a bit. In which case you could happily mark time with an OTE and if the hiring starts, exercise your ORD. If past your ORD, take the pension hit and accrue it in the airlines instead. If nothing arises then stay in the mob for 4yrs with the security of an AFPS15 EDP.
Genuinely happy to take criticism or contrarian opinions because at the moment, I just cannot see the advantage of accepting it.
I've spent the past few days playing with the pensions calculator and I just cannot see how the OTE appeals to the majority of two winged master race. Please allow me to explain:
Opt 1: Stay to 20/40 point and then leave.
Accept an OTE means that you will simply stay on a self-imposed pay freeze as a Level 9, topped out Flt Lt. Unless you have a plan to do something life/career enhancing within those 4yrs, you are simply going to return to Civvy life 4yrs older. Yes, you may get a bit more if you reach State Pension Age (whatever that will eventually be as it can change under AFPS15). If you're off to the airlines then you may be 4yrs older but do you have anything more to show for it?
Opt 2: Stay to 38/16 point then leave.
In which case you could enter your civvy career and be 4yrs more senior with 4yrs more paid into your civvy pension fund before your ex-colleagues who accepted OTE join you.
Opt 3: 20/40 point then PAS to 55.
Ok, so your 38/16 point becomes an 'Optional Retirement Date' but you can bet your bottom dollar that any future PAS offer will be based on your EED which will now be 4 years later. So in essence, you are now topped out Flt Lt for another 4yrs before transferring to PAS, with a minimum ROS of a further 5yrs. So, if you were not happy with PAS and wished to leave after 5yrs, you are now looking towards late-forties before you can try and forge a second career. That is far from ideal. In the meantime, you will be tied into the RAF for a total of 9yrs from what would have been your original 38/16 EED.
Opt 4: 38/16 point then PAS to 55.
Start PAS at your 38/16 point on a new payscale with a minimum of 5yrs service. This means that you will have been progressing through the PAS pay scale, earned your 4yrs service under AFPS15 to qualify for EDP etc and, if you're not happy, leave after 5yrs to forge a second career.
So, in essence, if you want to create a second career as a civilian then you won't particularly want an OTE. If you want PAS with a view to remaining to 55 then you don't want to accept an OTE and if you're intending to go PAS and leave after 5yrs then you definitely don't want to accept an OTE.
I can only think that you might accept it if you are already waiting / expecting to sit in an Airline Pool for a bit. In which case you could happily mark time with an OTE and if the hiring starts, exercise your ORD. If past your ORD, take the pension hit and accrue it in the airlines instead. If nothing arises then stay in the mob for 4yrs with the security of an AFPS15 EDP.
Genuinely happy to take criticism or contrarian opinions because at the moment, I just cannot see the advantage of accepting it.
An excellent post and reflects a conversation I had with a couple of guys last week.
Not found an aircrew chap who has accepted the offer yet. Most I have talked to are planning on leaving anyway and I know one who is going to exercise a PAS offer tied to another RoS.
Not found an aircrew chap who has accepted the offer yet. Most I have talked to are planning on leaving anyway and I know one who is going to exercise a PAS offer tied to another RoS.
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So, if one doesn't accept the OTE, but will incur a 3yr ROS from 2015 which would normally have come with an offer of PAS, does this make PAS from 38/16 point more likely/still possible?
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Gentlemen,
Can anyone give me some advice regarding the viability of a legal challenge to this offer?
When I joined for my contracted term, I was told I would earn a pension. It turns out that is no longer true for the final few years of my signed contract due to the forced change to AFPS15.
Any employment lawyers able to offer an opinion?
Can anyone give me some advice regarding the viability of a legal challenge to this offer?
When I joined for my contracted term, I was told I would earn a pension. It turns out that is no longer true for the final few years of my signed contract due to the forced change to AFPS15.
Any employment lawyers able to offer an opinion?
Pretty hard to challenge anything that comes in via a Statutory Instrument, especially one that still leaves you with the pension you have earned to date with additional benefits to come under AFPS15. In fact I would give up right now.
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Blindwingy - are you only asking for the male opinion?
The 7 clicks to freedom is always there if one is not content with the offer/terms of Service currently. The OTE gives each individual affected the option to accrue pension rights of both schemes that they will have served under; they can still decline and leave at their current end of engagement. It is a personal decision to accept or decline the offer, no one elses'. Do the numbers. Don't be too hasty rejecting the OTE but consider your own individual circumstances and what you want to do.
I would suggest:
The 7 clicks to freedom is always there if one is not content with the offer/terms of Service currently. The OTE gives each individual affected the option to accrue pension rights of both schemes that they will have served under; they can still decline and leave at their current end of engagement. It is a personal decision to accept or decline the offer, no one elses'. Do the numbers. Don't be too hasty rejecting the OTE but consider your own individual circumstances and what you want to do.
I would suggest:
- If you want to make a career within the RAF and/or have many more years to serve (this affects all who join prior to 1 Apr 15 who have not already made IPP, whichever current pension), accept the OTE to leave your options open; you can still opt to leave at original EED later.
- If you are nearing exit, have no clue what to do and are content to remain in the RAF with the potential for no future pay rises if not promoted, accept the offer to guarantee up to 4 more years employment.
- If you intend to leave at your current EED or, for aircrew, you prefer to take the PAS gamble, decline.
Last edited by Guest_22; 17th Dec 2013 at 08:45.
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I still think many are missing the point here...
When I joined at 18 (pension started accruing at 21) I thought I was going to leave at 38 with 17/60th of top rate Flt Lt pay. That is the contract I signed and I expected to start a second career aged 38. Now, however, without being asked to resign I now face leaving at 38 and will only accrue 12/60th of my pension. This is a fundamental change in my original contract. If I leave before 38 I won't see a penny until I'm around 65!! We're talking 100s of thousand difference here. If I want to see those last 5years worth of pension rights I will have to serve an extra 2 years and will be two years later into civi street.
This can't be legal! It stinks to high heaven!!!
When I joined at 18 (pension started accruing at 21) I thought I was going to leave at 38 with 17/60th of top rate Flt Lt pay. That is the contract I signed and I expected to start a second career aged 38. Now, however, without being asked to resign I now face leaving at 38 and will only accrue 12/60th of my pension. This is a fundamental change in my original contract. If I leave before 38 I won't see a penny until I'm around 65!! We're talking 100s of thousand difference here. If I want to see those last 5years worth of pension rights I will have to serve an extra 2 years and will be two years later into civi street.
This can't be legal! It stinks to high heaven!!!
I see exactly where High Expect is coming from. The rules have retrospectively been changed under his feet
.
BTW, those who expect future "service contracts" of backdated pension increments or gratuity payments years after after an EDP should pay particular attention! I suggest that these terms may well change before you reach the maturity of your "contract". WORTHLESS, these days!
OAP
.BTW, those who expect future "service contracts" of backdated pension increments or gratuity payments years after after an EDP should pay particular attention! I suggest that these terms may well change before you reach the maturity of your "contract". WORTHLESS, these days!
OAP
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Decision Time
So, 2014 begins with the OTE deadline looming; I still haven't signed my letter making my choice.
Just thought I'd bring this back to the forefront of prune and people's minds, and when added to the aircrew sustainability thread, wonder what the uptake will be...
Just thought I'd bring this back to the forefront of prune and people's minds, and when added to the aircrew sustainability thread, wonder what the uptake will be...
I haven't signed my OTE either but mainly because I've had far more pressing things to do such as Christmas etc. In fact, you have just reminded me to get it signed although I have been talking to a few guys about it and there are a few of us for whom it makes sense.
Those on AFPS05 who are on 18/40 points can get an increased pension for a mere 2yrs extra.
Also, those non-Uni grad young guns can still meet the OTE and leave in the bracket to have a good stab in the airlines.
Finally, if on an Exchange requiring a 3yr ROS - for the sake of a further year, you might as well accept the OTE.
I have heard (and I stress this is a RUMOUR) that Manning are probably going to base this year's PAS Offers on your original exit date. Although they don't know what they will do next year and 2016 is a complete mystery.
Does anyone know when this year's PAS Board will now sit? I have heard mid-Feb but any confirmation would be nice.
Those on AFPS05 who are on 18/40 points can get an increased pension for a mere 2yrs extra.
Also, those non-Uni grad young guns can still meet the OTE and leave in the bracket to have a good stab in the airlines.
Finally, if on an Exchange requiring a 3yr ROS - for the sake of a further year, you might as well accept the OTE.
I have heard (and I stress this is a RUMOUR) that Manning are probably going to base this year's PAS Offers on your original exit date. Although they don't know what they will do next year and 2016 is a complete mystery.
Does anyone know when this year's PAS Board will now sit? I have heard mid-Feb but any confirmation would be nice.
