Undue Deference to Senior Officers
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If you ever played "mess games" like mess Rugby or whatever, did you defer to senior ranks ?
Played in "friendly' service rugby match and the opposition had an Air Commodore at full back. I don't recall hanging back when I tackled him. Nice bloke.
Do officers still salute when entering a fellow officer's office, at least on the first encounter, no matter the rank differential? i.e. a squadron leader would salute on entering a pilot officer's domain first time? Custom of the Service etc ...
Do officers still salute when entering a fellow officer's office, at least on the first encounter, no matter the rank differential? i.e. a squadron leader would salute on entering a pilot officer's domain first time? Custom of the Service etc ...
Originally Posted by reynoldsno1
Do officers still salute when entering a fellow officer's office, at least on the first encounter, no matter the rank differential? i.e. a squadron leader would salute on entering a pilot officer's domain first time? Custom of the Service etc ...
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Reynoldsno1
It is certainly a custom that I try to keep alive, often much to the surprise of some who no longer practice this. However, I have seen a resurgence of awareness amongst new JOs and long may this simple but respectful gesture continue.
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What an interesting post.
Whilst working for BAe in Saudi a new General Manager for the site arrived.
No names but he was an ex RAF Group Captain.
He appeared in a crew room shortly after arriving and without introducing himself launched into a briefing. At the end of said brief he asked "any questions"?
One of our Australian Cousins asked the first question
Who the F*** are you!
Whilst working for BAe in Saudi a new General Manager for the site arrived.
No names but he was an ex RAF Group Captain.
He appeared in a crew room shortly after arriving and without introducing himself launched into a briefing. At the end of said brief he asked "any questions"?
One of our Australian Cousins asked the first question
Who the F*** are you!
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Warmtoast, I was under the impression that the less-than-stellar qualities of any senior officer, that you have provided an example of, from your experience in the Far East, was eliminated around 1917 or 1918.
One has to question the character qualities and leadership ability of a man who doesn't like to lose at anything, and who has to have the playing field tilted in his direction, even when informal games are involved.
What would happen when this so called "man of leadership" was thrust into battle, and commenced to lose dramatically and be pummelled mercilessly by a ruthless enemy?
He'd want to call out "bar-lees!", and want the whole game started again, so he could win??
I would have to say an officer of this type would brook no respect and even less deference from me. I would regard that he has serious character and psychological flaws, that IMO, render him unworthy of holding a commission.
No-one likes to lose, but losing builds character, and develops personal stamina and perseverance. Nothing succeeds like persistance and perseverance (insert Calvin Coolidge quote here).
This officer sounds like he would have crumpled like a cardboard box under the pressure of a real conflict, and when nothing was going right for him..
One has to question the character qualities and leadership ability of a man who doesn't like to lose at anything, and who has to have the playing field tilted in his direction, even when informal games are involved.
What would happen when this so called "man of leadership" was thrust into battle, and commenced to lose dramatically and be pummelled mercilessly by a ruthless enemy?
He'd want to call out "bar-lees!", and want the whole game started again, so he could win??
I would have to say an officer of this type would brook no respect and even less deference from me. I would regard that he has serious character and psychological flaws, that IMO, render him unworthy of holding a commission.
No-one likes to lose, but losing builds character, and develops personal stamina and perseverance. Nothing succeeds like persistance and perseverance (insert Calvin Coolidge quote here).
This officer sounds like he would have crumpled like a cardboard box under the pressure of a real conflict, and when nothing was going right for him..
Do officers still salute when entering a fellow officer's office
Outdoors, I always saluted female officers irrespective of their rank, even if they were below me.
I was taught it back in 1965, and was told it was the equivalent of doffing ones' hat to a lady in the civilian world.
Quite a few junior female officers were surprised that I did it, but all thought it a nice gesture.
I doubt that happens now.
Warmtoast - Is it possible that in your young and callow naivety, you mistook a bit of joshing by the club's Commodore for the real thing and blew it up in your relatively fragile and sensitive mind? I have known similar occasions when someone has said in jocular fashion, "Beating the Commodore at tennis so often isn't going to do your career much good."
Deferring to seniority in sport is not a characteristic of the Royal Navy I remember. If anything, the CO received a particularly good hammering whenever he played deck hockey on the flight deck or played rugby ashore.
I am reminded of an old friend who served in Gibraltar during the 1960s and raced one of the RN-owned 20' Victory class keelboats every week. He was last or nearly last every time. The regulars were very understanding and sympathetic. “She’s an old boat and we have local knowledge,” they said. When his term in Gibraltar eventually came to an end, my friend handed the Victory over to a new arrival, another keen sailor, with apologies for the boat's drawbacks and lousy racing capabilities.
On visiting Gib in a ship the following season, he discovered that the new arrival had re-tuned the boat's rigging and was winning every weekly race. The new arrival was far from being the most senior competitor.
Perhaps you really were that good a sailor?
Deferring to seniority in sport is not a characteristic of the Royal Navy I remember. If anything, the CO received a particularly good hammering whenever he played deck hockey on the flight deck or played rugby ashore.
I am reminded of an old friend who served in Gibraltar during the 1960s and raced one of the RN-owned 20' Victory class keelboats every week. He was last or nearly last every time. The regulars were very understanding and sympathetic. “She’s an old boat and we have local knowledge,” they said. When his term in Gibraltar eventually came to an end, my friend handed the Victory over to a new arrival, another keen sailor, with apologies for the boat's drawbacks and lousy racing capabilities.
On visiting Gib in a ship the following season, he discovered that the new arrival had re-tuned the boat's rigging and was winning every weekly race. The new arrival was far from being the most senior competitor.
Perhaps you really were that good a sailor?
I can only speak for the RAF Gliding and Soaring Association (in the 1960s) when rank was irrelevant on the airfield.
I can recall AVM Sir Theodore McEvoy and Air Commodore Paddy Kearon (both excellent people as well as pretty good glider pilots) deferring to the duty instructor (who happened to be an SAC).
I can recall AVM Sir Theodore McEvoy and Air Commodore Paddy Kearon (both excellent people as well as pretty good glider pilots) deferring to the duty instructor (who happened to be an SAC).
I never encountered any officer who expected deference on the sporting field.
As for saluting on entering an office, I was taught that when I went through IOT (and still do it myself), but I think open plan offices has made a bit of a dent in the tradition.
Personally I think it is a decline in the standards instilled (or not) at Sleaford Tech these days - but then I am getting old now.
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None of my "clever" japes directed at senior officers ever did me any harm. All the harm done to my career was done completely by me in numerous other ways!
You don't really believe that, do you Courtney? (when I managed to get my old 'unseen' F1369s I found out what 2nd/3rd ROs had really written, despite what they had said at the time).
PS AOCinC STC PSO would have been a wg cdr, not a gp capt- the gp capt would have come from elsewhere in HQSTC.
You don't really believe that, do you Courtney? (when I managed to get my old 'unseen' F1369s I found out what 2nd/3rd ROs had really written, despite what they had said at the time).
PS AOCinC STC PSO would have been a wg cdr, not a gp capt- the gp capt would have come from elsewhere in HQSTC.
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I've heard cases where the opposite of deference, was expected.
On a "turkey trot" cross country run, you were expected to finish before the CO. Rumour had it that anyone who finished the run behind the CO would be charged for poor fitness.
On a "turkey trot" cross country run, you were expected to finish before the CO. Rumour had it that anyone who finished the run behind the CO would be charged for poor fitness.
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A fellow nav. student was requested to be at the Thorney Island Sailing Club jetty at 8.00 a.m. on Monday morning. It transpired that his task was to take the painter whilst a more senior officer held the dingy steady. All under the supervision the Station Commander whose duty was to give an AOC a helping hand onto the jetty after his weekend aboard his yatch. Apparently this was quite a common Monday morning ritual.
n.b. The gentleman was not AOC FTC but a well known name at the time.
n.b. The gentleman was not AOC FTC but a well known name at the time.
A classic abuse of power happened at an RAF FTS when the late, unlamented 'PCL' was Stn Cdr.
He invited all the students due to graduate and receive their wings the following day to his residence...
...to act as beaters for his tame game birds, so that they could be blasted away by various visiting Air Wheels, with whom the PCL was schmoozing. But they did their job so effectively that the birds all buggered off into the distance at warp snot before anyone could take aim
PCL? Power Crazed Loony.
He invited all the students due to graduate and receive their wings the following day to his residence...
...to act as beaters for his tame game birds, so that they could be blasted away by various visiting Air Wheels, with whom the PCL was schmoozing. But they did their job so effectively that the birds all buggered off into the distance at warp snot before anyone could take aim
PCL? Power Crazed Loony.
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"the birds all buggered off into the distance at warp snot"
I've never known birds to do anything but warp speed,
pheasant, grouse, partridge
I've never known birds to do anything but warp speed,
pheasant, grouse, partridge
Indeed. But the beaters had started rather too early for the PCL's fellow flak gunners, so there were none left by the time they'd put up their guns.
At least one profligate senior officer did get his comeuppance though: Ousting of RAF chief was fair, say officers - News - The Independent
Others though, were almost of the same mindset as Jimmy Savile....allegedly.
At least one profligate senior officer did get his comeuppance though: Ousting of RAF chief was fair, say officers - News - The Independent
Others though, were almost of the same mindset as Jimmy Savile....allegedly.
Another VSO tale from the Heyday of the RAFGSA.
During the Inter-Services Gliding Competition in the 70s, AVM Don Spotiswood landed out at RAF Abingdon. He was collected from the middle of the airfield by the Air Traffic Landrover and delivered to local, where the flt lt SATCO launched into a vitriolic tirade about the irresponsibility of glider pilots.
Don Spot said nothing until the tirade finally finished. He then reached into his pocket, pulled out his wallet and removed his F1250. Handing it over he said "Flt Lt, shall we start this conversation again?"
During the Inter-Services Gliding Competition in the 70s, AVM Don Spotiswood landed out at RAF Abingdon. He was collected from the middle of the airfield by the Air Traffic Landrover and delivered to local, where the flt lt SATCO launched into a vitriolic tirade about the irresponsibility of glider pilots.
Don Spot said nothing until the tirade finally finished. He then reached into his pocket, pulled out his wallet and removed his F1250. Handing it over he said "Flt Lt, shall we start this conversation again?"