Undue Deference to Senior Officers
 

Do we pay undue deference to senior officers, and if so why?


I ask because a long time ago (1957) a personal example of this affected me. Not badly, but it left a nasty taste that I’ve never forgotten — read on.


Background
In 1956 I was posted to the Far East and recorded my journey out to the Far East on PPRune here: http://www.pprune.org/aviation-histo...0-s-style.html and arrived at R.A.F. Negombo, Ceylon (Sri Lanka) on 15th November 1956.

Once at Negombo I settled in and started to explore the various leisure activities on offer at the station. Sailing was of particular interest because four years earlier I’d been a member of the R.A.F. Thornhill, (N’Gamo Dam — S. Rhodesia) sailing club on a previous posting. I wasn’t particularly good at the little sailing I did there and never did gain any sailing proficiency certificates as my sailing capabilities at the time were pretty mediocre at best, but on arrival in Ceylon with the gorgeous Ceylon weather and sailing available so near to the station I was willing to have another go.


The R.A.F. Negombo sailing club sailed on the Negombo Lagoon about a mile from the station. There were plenty of active members, it had a clubhouse and boat shed and was active socially with families actively involved in the fortnightly BBQ’s with locally caught crabs a speciality. The lagoon was a marvellous stretch of nearly land-locked water about five miles long by two miles wide. The furthest strip of land isolated it from the Indian Ocean which meant there was no ocean swell or high waves so sailing conditions were ideal.


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Negombo Lagoon can be seen at the end of Negombo’s Rwy 22


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Another photo of the Lagoon as seen when taking-off from Negombo’s Rwy 22. The boat sheds and club house are hidden by the trees at the water’s edge.


Having paid my subs and read the rules I started sailing under instruction as a novice using the club’s “Cadet” dinghies. The club had a Royal Yachting Association (RYA) licensed examiner, so my aim was to gain the necessary sailing experience and prove my competence as a yachtsman by taking the RYA helmsmen’s exam that covered both theory and practice (how to tie nautical knots, man overboard recovery etc. — I still remember the various items and sailing terms in the exam such as how to identify the leech, luff, clew and the tack and how to tie a bowline and reef knot as well as how to tell the difference between a halyard and painter — all pretty useless stuff nowadays, but at the time essential info if one aimed to get a helmsmen’s ticket). This I did successfully after a month or so and with the signed certificate graduated to the higher performance “Fleetwind” yachts in the club’s fleet. The Fleetwinds allowed for exciting sailing, being relatively light and with a generous sail area they were easy to get up on the plane when the wind was strong enough and I spent many happy hours exploring the lagoon both solo and with other club members as ‘crew’ in the Fleetwinds.


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“Cadet” novice sailing dinghy, note the blunt bow – to stop one going too fast perhaps!


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“Fleetwind” dinghy with a young Warmtoast at the helm.


But after a couple of months sailing at Negombo, my sailing world came crashing down when I was posted to R.A.F. China Bay on the north-eastern side of the island near the RN Base at Trincomalee. Having arrived at China Bay and with so much water around I was disappointed to find that there was no R.A.F. sailing club or facilities; however, across the bay at Trincomalee the RN shore establishment (“HMS Highflyer”) operated a well run and organised sailing club under the aegis of the Royal Naval Sailing Association.


Having made enquiries it seemed that although I was R.A.F. I would be welcomed as a member of the “HMS Highflyer” RN Sailing Association club and sail with them; which I did. There were no subs and assume the RN treated sailing as a perk that everyone in the Navy should be encouraged to take part in. I had an interview with the Commodore of the club, a Lt. Commander RN whose day job was Queen’s Harbour Master (QHM) for the Trincomalee naval base. Having shown him my RYA licence I was given general advice about sailing in the bays around the Trincomalee / China Bay area. He passed me on to a RN Petty Officer member of the club so I could be assessed on my competence to sail and be given some practical advice on rigging and sailing the club’s dinghies (Royal Navy Sailing Association 14-footers commonly known as ‘RNSA 14s’). He took me for a couple of trips around the Trincomalee harbour local area and I was shown where and where not to sail, given the helm and I proved to him that I was proficient enough to be let loose in a RNSA dinghy without being shipwrecked in some obscure Trinco bay!


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Royal Navy Sailing Association (RNSA) 14 sailing boat. Clinker-built and gaff rigged they were strong and sturdy and with a wide beam ideal for exploring the many bays around Trincomalee and China Bay. The occupant was my regular “crew”.

Racing with the Royal Navy


As a relative novice the PO said I would be welcome to race with the RNSA members and would I be interested — yes of course! Racing at Trinco was organised in two groups; Wednesday afternoons when novices raced and Saturday afternoons when those judged ‘experienced’ raced. One couldn’t be regarded ‘experienced’ until one had raced a full season of Wednesday races as a ‘novice’. Being R.A.F. and with no RNSA experience I was judged a ‘novice’ and joined those racing on Wednesday afternoons.
To start with I was not particularly good, most RN sailors who I sailed against were far better than me and my inexperience showed, but after a week or so everything changed and I started to win races. I thought this was rather odd — here I was, an R.A.F. landlubber with no long-term sailing expertise beating experienced sailors who probably had saltwater coursing through their veins. It just wasn’t right, I shouldn’t be winning, but I was. However, I wasn’t too worried; in fact I was elated, believing I was a good or very good sailor the proof being that I was beating ‘real’ sailors at their own game!


Winning Leaves a Nasty Taste


I raced the best part of four months as a novice and at the end of the season I’d won more races than the others in the Wednesday group and was declared winner. At the party and prize giving held to celebrate the end of the season; I was presented as the winner of the Wednesday group with a mini-cup, a yachtsman’s knife with a marlin spike and a medal. Having been declared winner and presented with my prizes, I was pulled to one side by the Commodore of the club (Trinco’s QHM) and told as I remember it well from fifty-six years ago: “(my real name) congratulations on winning the series, however you are obviously not aware of how we do things in the Navy, what you probably don’t know is that when the Admiral sails (and he sailed most Wednesday afternoons, but I didn’t know this) we allow him to win, you being R.A.F. have spoilt this for him and next time you sail against him in a race we will expect you to follow the navy tradition of letting him win – understand?” “Yes sir” I replied, saying ‘yes’ because I wanted to continue sailing the RNSAs in my spare time. If I said no I assume I’d have been expelled from the club which would have been awful from my point of view because at the time I was obsessed by sailing as a worthwhile past-time at China Bay, added to which I had a couple of R.A.F. colleagues who sailed with me as crew who would have been as gutted as me if we’d no longer been allowed to sail.


Afterwards, initially having been elated at my win I had time to reflect and realised that I probably wasn’t as good a sailor as I thought and felt rather depressed. If the RN sailors had been out to win and not allowed the admiral to win, I feel sure I would have been well down the pecking order rather than outright winner of the Wednesday series, which was a sobering thought. However, my relative inexperience showed when I sailed later in the ‘experienced’ category and didn’t win a single race. The admiral (Vice-Admiral H. W. Biggs, C-in-C East Indies Station) continued to sail in the Wednesday ‘novice’ series so the competition I had when I sailed against experienced sailors on Saturdays was real with no deference shown to a senior officer.


This attitude of unwarranted obsequiousness to someone because of their rank rather than ability has vexed me for a long time and as I said above leaves a nasty taste. So the question is — is this attitude of deferring to senior officers regardless of their capabilities a trait unique to the RN, or does it prevail in the other services including our own R.A.F.?


Of course in the line of duty due deference to authority has to be shown, but deference in a sporting context is a no-no I’d have thought. I realise that the 21st century attitude to superiors and those in authority is vastly different to what it was fifty years ago, but some habits die hard and I wonder does undue deference to senior officers in the context I’ve described above still prevail?










PS to the Above
A couple of photos from my album showing Vice Admiral Biggs presenting his officers to Solomon Bandaranaike, prime minister of Ceylon, at the hand-over ceremony of the RN East Indies Station base at Trincomalee to the Ceylon navy on 15th October 1957 when the White Ensign was replaced by the Ceylon naval ensign. The other is of the RN cruiser “HMS Ceylon” at anchor in Trinco harbour (which at the time of the handover was flying the flag of the Commander-in-Chief East Indies Station, Vice Admiral Biggs) whilst in the background a couple of Ceylon’s Whalers can be seen sailing.


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Of the trophies I won, the mini cup has long since gone, the medal I still have and the yachting knife with marlin spike resides in the garden shed and is used for cutting twine and general garden use. I never did use the spike for its original purpose of untying knots, but remember as a boy having a similar knife and was told the spike was to remove stones from the hooves of horses, so when presented with the knife I wondered what use it would be to me in Ceylon? Principally because never once during my time in Ceylon did I see a horse — oxen drawing carts yes plenty, elephants foraging in the jungle by one of the bays adjacent to the airfield yes — but horses no! So removing stones from the hooves of oxen or from wild elephant’s feet made it pretty useless tool in a Ceylon context, but for cutting garden twine 56-years later it’s just the job!


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Ox Cart at entrance to R.A.F. China Bay


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Wild elephants regularly foraged in the jungle around the airfield. I took this photo of an elephant in the scrub-jungle alongside the airfield. The adjacent bay had an unpronounceable Singhalese name, but because of the regular incursions by elephants to feed we in the R.A.F. just called it “Elephant Bay”.

Don't know about undue deference but it was once suggested to me that 'I leave it out' when I suggested that a local crew in the Med shouldn't continue racing after they'd used their engine to get off a bank upon which they'd grounded. They WERE hosting us so I guess I was wrong and the diplomatic course was the better to sail :)

This is a civilian take but, as it happens, involves an Admiral.

I was croupier and ran the roulette as part of a fairly wide area charity scheme in north Lincolnshire.

Now one day we were requested to provide a casino at Belchford to raise funds for Lincoln Cathedral. The admiral concerned had hired a large marquee for a wedding and took the opportunity for run this charity event.

The roulette was going well and people were winning and losing although I, as the bank, was definitely winning. Then the admiral hove in to sight, placed a couple of chips on the table and chatted to all and sundry. When I called the winning number and paid out the bets the admiral scooped up 'his' winnings.

As the game progressed it became obvious that the old boy would always win regardless of where he had placed his bets. In the end I started to pay out twice, to the admiral and to the winner!

PN

IMHO, that is wrong.

In the services I can "understand" even though I might not like it
but in a civilian context, not a hope would I allow them to get away
with it.


I think in Stormin' Normans book he made a comment that the jokes made by a Brigadier General seemed to go down better than when he was a Colonel !!!

What an excellent, well-written and fascinating post, Warmtoast. Thank you.

As for deference to senior officers, I can recount a story. I was a TWU instrucor and QWI at RAF Chivenor in the mid-80s and, one Christmas, we had a staff competition, invented by the Harrier and Jaguar mates. It involved a rapid plan to do some weapons events on Pembrey range and a number of off-range targets, both recce and simulated attacks. Everything had rigid times on target with points added or deducted for results and timing - and some other mud-moving stuff that I probably didn't really get. Oh, and fuel on the ground was scored too. Every pilot in flying wing competed and it took three waves of our marvlous Hawk fleet to get everyone through. Excellent sport!!

I was on the second wave and before I got my targets and timing I was intercepted by pilots from the first wave with some cleverly disguised, but rather obvious disinfomation about the mission. I quickly learnt that the gloves were off in this mud-moving game and pressed on with my planning.

I did take to time to think about the areas that were most significant to the gaining or losing of points - an Air Defender in this situation needs to make sure that the effects of lack of air-to-ground experience weren't too big a disadvantage. Whether to sacrifice timing against weapons and recce scores was a big issue and the time spent on that aspect of planning turned out to be well spent.

Anyway, long story short(ish), I had great conditions at Pembrey for the live (practise) weapons and the off range targets were fine. After landing, remembering the "gloves off" I went to the rear cockpit and set the weapons override switch to override. This was an item that the next pilot in the jet (for the third wave) was required to check according to the checklist, but a failure so to do would cost him dear - no weapons release.

The next pilot to fly that jet was OC Flying - a bloody good man (N**ry B**l) and the officer that had given me the absolutely best stand-up bollocking I have ever had in my life (nothing to do with this occasion).

When I saw the jet allocation for the third wave, it did briefly cross my mind about warning him to do his checks thoroughly, but decided it was not for Flt Lt Courtnage to offer advice about flying to Wg Cdr B**l.

He flew his sortie without a snag. Later in the bar where the results were being announced, I was attacked by a totally enraged (understandably) wg cdr. I cannot repeat here what he called me, especially when I admitted that I knew he was flying that jet. But he did have to admit that it would only have been an issue if he had failed to complete his checks correctly.

None of my "clever" japes directed at senior officers ever did me any harm. All the harm done to my career was done completely by me in numerous other ways!

Courtney

I quite agree, I wasn't condoning it, what I did was recompense the real winner after they let the admiral take their winnings. I did try a couple of time rapping his fingers :)

Had a lot of fun at B....k on the exercise distaff, spoofing senior officers, especially the stn cdr, D.....C......... There were times when he did not see the funny side of it and I reckoned my second career was screwed before it started -but my ACR on his departure proved that he had taken it all in good sport.

First, Warmtoast, thank you for a most interesting post. It really was another world when postings in the RAF included S. Rhodesia and Sri Lanka!

My tale relates to when "Curly Bill" was in charge at High Wycombe. I was part of an escort to an official visit of a number of foreign air force generals. Throughout the whole day, Curly Bill's PSO, a gp capt, called him "Commander in Chief" every time he spoke to him. It became extremely irritating. What was wrong with "sir"? Uriah Heep kept coming to mind!:ugh:

That PSO job must have been a punishment tour. I'd rather had suffered a public beheading.

One day I was acting doorman at circa £45k pa, and remarked to the visiting gp capt, who was the other doorman, that the star count so far was 21.

He complained to my boss, a mere sqn ldr, that I was being disrespectful. I usually found senior officers not in command appointments to be almost human. In his case I noted that he was medically discharged not long afterwards as the his post-operative cerebumectomy had been unsuccessful.

I spent an inordinate amount of my Service life involved in shooting competitions at Bisley (both with Target and Service weapons). Rank had few privileges there ... The shots scored what they scored, whether fired by an SAC or a Gp Capt, or indeed an AVM. Indeed, your 'status' on "The Common" was mixture of your skill and your attitude and relationship to other competitors.

Thus it was that we were able to bollock a very competent gp capt (sadly recently deceased) for losing us the Inter-Command match by shooting on the wrong targets! Snobbery and rank has no place in sport. It is the place where we are all equals, striving to be the best at whatever we are doing.

In the workplace, it's a different game. Different rules, and much more challenging to score a point or two on a senior rank :cool:

Perhaps it is a bit off track but casting my mind back - and it is now 44 years since I retired - the captain of an aircraft, no matter what his rank was supposed to be addressed by all on board as "sir". I do remember as a young Fg Off Meteor QFI feeling embarrassed when my Gp Capt student insisted on calling me such and he did the same when he flew with the only NCO QFI on the flight.

Do such gentlemanly rules still apply?

In my RAF time it was normal to beat the Boss at all competitive events to show him who really ran the squadron. :E

Question for those who served in the RAF and RN.

If you ever played "mess games" like mess Rugby or whatever, did you defer to senior ranks ?

Reason I ask is in the Army here in Aus on one camp (I was an Offr Cdt at the time), they liked it if you didn't defer to them, wanted to see what you were made of !

I was a bit in awe of the Chaplain until he told me to be otherwise :O

Did he use mime?

Brilliant post with some excellent photo's.

Perhaps best to think that in his cups and later years, yon Admiral would have known he was cheating and at some point, the shame would have kicked-in.

Strake


>Admiral would have known he was cheating<


Possibly not, after all he was not doing the cheating, it was the ratings, POs etc. who were not trying to win.

This attitude of unwarranted obsequiousness to someone because of their rank rather than ability has vexed me for a long time

Well, Warmtoast, apart from observing that the knife which you won was actually a perfectly standard issue "pusser's dirk" which had nothing to do with horses, with its single blade, a marlin spike, and a rudimentary screwdriver, and that it was the two-and-a-half ringer who had the problem with obsequiousness, and certainly not you, I thoroughly enjoyed the wonderful post, and the beautiful illustrations, which brought this all to light!:ok:

Let me simply say that I knew the sadly prematurely departed Vice Admiral Geoffrey Biggs, the distinguished submariner son of your Vice Admiral Biggs pretty well, and if the father was anything remotely like the son, he would have been appalled to discover what was apparently going on, and I feel that after 56 years you really should stop worrying about it.

Jack

PS I'm only sorry that you were evidently not also awarded the rather fetching light blue burgee adorned with one of your splendid elephants which I understand from an old Trinco hand was the sailing club's special emblem:sad:

Warmtoast,

Nice post and I'm sure I understand your drift. I ask only one question. Perhaps I'm around 10 years after your own experience with senior officers, but. I as a SNCO flew gliders with people with more straight stripes than a non commissioned chap could be reasonably expected to count. None, repeat none, were ever known to me by any other name than Dave, Brian or Tom etc. Having trashed a former CDS in the Cotton Club in St John, Newfoundland, I feel that you are talking about subservience rather than deference ? I'm not sure, I joined 1969 and left in 1997. Subservience was never my bag. Perhaps things had changed.

Smudge :ok:

26er
I dont know whether this applies in the ab initio training world, but I never experienced it in either the truckie or kipper fleets, nor when I was with the USN.