Ratio of Air Marshals, Air Commodores and Group Captains in the RAF
Parson,
Why? The RAAF is 17,000 strong and has the same rank structure as us (albeit they only have a 4 star when he is also Chief of the Defence Force).
It's the number of levels of authority that you need to do your business that's important, not size per se. In other words, each promotion should give you a greater level of responsibility. Looking at our current structure, it pretty much does. Indeed, the last change we had was to get rid of the JT rank so we've ended up with the daft situation of now having SACs and SAC(Technicians), the latter with a circle around their 3-bladed props rather than having JTs with a 4-bladed prop!!
Why? The RAAF is 17,000 strong and has the same rank structure as us (albeit they only have a 4 star when he is also Chief of the Defence Force).
It's the number of levels of authority that you need to do your business that's important, not size per se. In other words, each promotion should give you a greater level of responsibility. Looking at our current structure, it pretty much does. Indeed, the last change we had was to get rid of the JT rank so we've ended up with the daft situation of now having SACs and SAC(Technicians), the latter with a circle around their 3-bladed props rather than having JTs with a 4-bladed prop!!
We are quibbling about trivia here. The obvious fact that we have far too many senior officers is the one that needs to be sorted.
Oh and what do you do with all the work that they currently do?
There is a list of the 9 Air Marshals in post #23. I will leave you to work out where the 23 AVM slots are.
RLE - the current rank structure dates from the when the air force was several times the size it is today. You simply don't need the number of current ranks to manage a much reduced service.
Gentleman Aviator
Come to that the RNZAF has fewer than 3 500 people (half the size of Brize?) and still has a 2-Star CAS (or CAF as they call him).
But to return to a hobby horse of mine, it's the number of different ranks we still have (and that's a Joint Service "we") that's the problem IMHO.
At the risk of emulating WEBFan, I quote something pertinent I posted on another thread a while ago:
But to return to a hobby horse of mine, it's the number of different ranks we still have (and that's a Joint Service "we") that's the problem IMHO.
At the risk of emulating WEBFan, I quote something pertinent I posted on another thread a while ago:
Facts:
1. I joined an RAF of about 150 000 personnel - with a 4-Star CAS. I now serve with a 35 000-ish RAF - with a 4-Star CAS.
2. 35 000 in uniform about equates to the Met Police - who have 11 ranks in total from Constable to Comissioner (and that's 2 more ranks than most forces).
3. From AC to ACM, the RAF has about 19 or 20 ranks.
Discuss.
1. I joined an RAF of about 150 000 personnel - with a 4-Star CAS. I now serve with a 35 000-ish RAF - with a 4-Star CAS.
2. 35 000 in uniform about equates to the Met Police - who have 11 ranks in total from Constable to Comissioner (and that's 2 more ranks than most forces).
3. From AC to ACM, the RAF has about 19 or 20 ranks.
Discuss.
OK Teeters, I will add another set of questions:
What ranks do you propose getting rid of and why? What do you actually gain by getting rid of a rank (look what's happened to the JT & SAC(T))? What happens to all the personnel in the disestablished rank? Are they promoted to the next rank or demoted to the lower rank? What happens to their pay and responsibilities?
My view: the rank system in the UK military isn't broken, so why try and fix it? It is similar to that of (pretty much) all other militaries, so there has to be question: if they are all happy, why shouldn't we be? Comparing us with a police force is entirely erroneous, just as comparing us with Tescos is erroneous. You need to compare air forces with air forces and armies with armies. We regularly get compared to the Israeli Air Force (erroneously, but with reason) and they have the same number of ranks as us bar OR1 and OF9 and OF10 (and we don't really have any OF10s any more).
What ranks do you propose getting rid of and why? What do you actually gain by getting rid of a rank (look what's happened to the JT & SAC(T))? What happens to all the personnel in the disestablished rank? Are they promoted to the next rank or demoted to the lower rank? What happens to their pay and responsibilities?
My view: the rank system in the UK military isn't broken, so why try and fix it? It is similar to that of (pretty much) all other militaries, so there has to be question: if they are all happy, why shouldn't we be? Comparing us with a police force is entirely erroneous, just as comparing us with Tescos is erroneous. You need to compare air forces with air forces and armies with armies. We regularly get compared to the Israeli Air Force (erroneously, but with reason) and they have the same number of ranks as us bar OR1 and OF9 and OF10 (and we don't really have any OF10s any more).
Ah so more unsubstantiated opinion: getting rid of some "brass hats" (you might want to check how much a "brass hat" earns to see it would be an irrelevance to cuts in equipment and manning) and OC ABC and Gp Capt T&A without actually being able to identify what posts you would cut! You're going to have to do better than that!!
I think the leadership structure is fine it works well whatever size force we have. The rank system doesn't need cutting, it works, leave it alone. It's all too easy to break something - quite another to fix it again when you realise the mistake.
You could argue that the system needs more aircraft, squadrons, airfields etc to balance the ratio.
Leave the structure in place so that we can grow into it again.
You could argue that the system needs more aircraft, squadrons, airfields etc to balance the ratio.
Leave the structure in place so that we can grow into it again.
"It may not be broken but it is very expensive. Get rid of a few brass hats and their attendant perks/pensions and the cuts in equipment and manning may not have to be so severe."
Okay - so lets fire 10 Air Vice Marshals shall we. We've just saved about £1.2 million per year. There are no drivers as such anymore (its pretty much a pool and if you're lucky you may get a car). Most of the houses have gone, and those that are left are used heavily for official functions.
There is a tiny number of staff with 'retinues' who essentially do the catering for official functions and help ensure that the senior has time to do his job. They still work out far more cheaply than getting hired help in every time an official function is held.
In return for a very small salary relative to responsibility, we expect these people to be on call 7 days per week. Most 2*s and above that I've worked with have diaries which start very early, and finish very late. They are usually busy people with a lot of responsibility.
Their 'perks' seem to be limited to a nice uniform, an occasional driver if the business case can be made and in a tiny number of jobs some form of in house catering support.
Take all this away and you dont save more than £2m per year - or less than the cost of an average BBC star...
Okay - so lets fire 10 Air Vice Marshals shall we. We've just saved about £1.2 million per year. There are no drivers as such anymore (its pretty much a pool and if you're lucky you may get a car). Most of the houses have gone, and those that are left are used heavily for official functions.
There is a tiny number of staff with 'retinues' who essentially do the catering for official functions and help ensure that the senior has time to do his job. They still work out far more cheaply than getting hired help in every time an official function is held.
In return for a very small salary relative to responsibility, we expect these people to be on call 7 days per week. Most 2*s and above that I've worked with have diaries which start very early, and finish very late. They are usually busy people with a lot of responsibility.
Their 'perks' seem to be limited to a nice uniform, an occasional driver if the business case can be made and in a tiny number of jobs some form of in house catering support.
Take all this away and you dont save more than £2m per year - or less than the cost of an average BBC star...
Thread drift alert.
It's certainly broken at some levels. How can a FS and a CT both be OR7? Don't get me started on the inter-service bit of this. It would not be tolerated at any OF level!
It's certainly broken at some levels. How can a FS and a CT both be OR7? Don't get me started on the inter-service bit of this. It would not be tolerated at any OF level!
Gentleman Aviator
I'll rise to Roland's bait.
The rank system, both OR and OF, is - or appears to be - based on the Army and especially the Infantry (probably other teeth arms also). It seems to me that each OF rank has (had?) a discrete role.
Looking at the more senior OF ranks, Majs commanded companies, half Colonels battalions, Brigs ... er ... Brigades, Maj Gens Divisions, Lt Gens Corps and Generals Armies.
So far so good. Those still reading will note I've omitted full Cols; but until recently so could the Army with "brevet" promotions from Lt Col to one-Star. (As an aside, to suit their needs, the RN - again until recently - could miss out one star). But of course - see my penultimate para below -the RAF had to use ALL the ranks!!
One of the "unintended consequences" of this is on pay: the big rises are at Lt Col and Brig, which are important command milestones - in the Army. Both the RAF and RN have "big commands" at Capt/Gp Capt, but not much of a pay rise - comparatively speaking.
So how would I change it? I speak almost entirely from an RAF flying background, so I'll talk about aviation units. I'm sure - mutatis mutandis - it would work elsewhere.
ORs first. IMHO you need:
1. A u/t or recruit rank.
2. A "doer" - whether that's with a spanner or a pen (metaphorically).
3. A junior supervisor.
4. A senior supervisor.
5. A junior (mostly man-) manager.
6. A senior manager.
7. An overall "God" - clearly a Warrant Officer
So that's 7 ranks (at most). Given the rule of thumb (or span) with each "looking after" up to 5 of the next lower rank/grade - that easily gives a WO thousands of troops! (note the "up to")
Now the OFs.
1. U/t.
2. A basic "doer". (Sqn Shag)
3. Advanced "doer"/junior supervisor. (Auth?)
4. Senior supervisor/manager (Flt Cdr/Sqn Cdr?)
5. More senior supervisor/manager but (crucially) no longer necessarily the Subject Matter Expert. (Staish?)
6. Type or Role Commander.
7. Force Commander.
8. Top Bloke (Blokess?) and political interface.
So that gives us about 15 instead of the present 19 or 20. And - as the Army (sort of) demonstrate, the operationally based rank structure gives a (fairly) suitable structure for the staff support.
One other key move that we (RAF) seem particularly bad at is missing out a rank level in any particular wiring diagram. We seem incapable of having a bunch of (say) sqn ldrs working for a gp capt without chucking in a couple of Wingcos.
So there we are - back of a fag packet (well - Cuban cigars actually) in less than half-an-hour; my starter for 10.
[as an aside, and for some good Trivia, I commend the Wiki entry on RAF ranks. How about an AVM as a "3rd Ardian"!!]
The rank system, both OR and OF, is - or appears to be - based on the Army and especially the Infantry (probably other teeth arms also). It seems to me that each OF rank has (had?) a discrete role.
Looking at the more senior OF ranks, Majs commanded companies, half Colonels battalions, Brigs ... er ... Brigades, Maj Gens Divisions, Lt Gens Corps and Generals Armies.
So far so good. Those still reading will note I've omitted full Cols; but until recently so could the Army with "brevet" promotions from Lt Col to one-Star. (As an aside, to suit their needs, the RN - again until recently - could miss out one star). But of course - see my penultimate para below -the RAF had to use ALL the ranks!!
One of the "unintended consequences" of this is on pay: the big rises are at Lt Col and Brig, which are important command milestones - in the Army. Both the RAF and RN have "big commands" at Capt/Gp Capt, but not much of a pay rise - comparatively speaking.
So how would I change it? I speak almost entirely from an RAF flying background, so I'll talk about aviation units. I'm sure - mutatis mutandis - it would work elsewhere.
ORs first. IMHO you need:
1. A u/t or recruit rank.
2. A "doer" - whether that's with a spanner or a pen (metaphorically).
3. A junior supervisor.
4. A senior supervisor.
5. A junior (mostly man-) manager.
6. A senior manager.
7. An overall "God" - clearly a Warrant Officer
So that's 7 ranks (at most). Given the rule of thumb (or span) with each "looking after" up to 5 of the next lower rank/grade - that easily gives a WO thousands of troops! (note the "up to")
Now the OFs.
1. U/t.
2. A basic "doer". (Sqn Shag)
3. Advanced "doer"/junior supervisor. (Auth?)
4. Senior supervisor/manager (Flt Cdr/Sqn Cdr?)
5. More senior supervisor/manager but (crucially) no longer necessarily the Subject Matter Expert. (Staish?)
6. Type or Role Commander.
7. Force Commander.
8. Top Bloke (Blokess?) and political interface.
So that gives us about 15 instead of the present 19 or 20. And - as the Army (sort of) demonstrate, the operationally based rank structure gives a (fairly) suitable structure for the staff support.
One other key move that we (RAF) seem particularly bad at is missing out a rank level in any particular wiring diagram. We seem incapable of having a bunch of (say) sqn ldrs working for a gp capt without chucking in a couple of Wingcos.
So there we are - back of a fag packet (well - Cuban cigars actually) in less than half-an-hour; my starter for 10.
[as an aside, and for some good Trivia, I commend the Wiki entry on RAF ranks. How about an AVM as a "3rd Ardian"!!
]
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Doing the fag packet bit, the Police have two ranks below Inspector ignoring shades such as probationer.
Following the slimming analogy the air force would abolish all enlisted ranks except AC and Sgt - save 5 ranks.
Then an inspector = flt lt therefore abolish PO/FO.
CI=Sqn Ldr
Sup=Wg Cdr
CS=Gp Capt
AC=AC
DC=AVM
CC=AM
On this model you can see the bulk of the extra RAF ranks are at the bottom not the top.
Now most functional aircrew are sgt to flt ie 6 ranks. Abolish FS, MACR, PO and FO. Let's face it, on the sqns it is how you perform and not what you are paid that counts.
For the ranks below sgt, go to one rank and on the same principle, you know who to entrust and who needs supervision. Simples.
Or is it?
Following the slimming analogy the air force would abolish all enlisted ranks except AC and Sgt - save 5 ranks.
Then an inspector = flt lt therefore abolish PO/FO.
CI=Sqn Ldr
Sup=Wg Cdr
CS=Gp Capt
AC=AC
DC=AVM
CC=AM
On this model you can see the bulk of the extra RAF ranks are at the bottom not the top.
Now most functional aircrew are sgt to flt ie 6 ranks. Abolish FS, MACR, PO and FO. Let's face it, on the sqns it is how you perform and not what you are paid that counts.
For the ranks below sgt, go to one rank and on the same principle, you know who to entrust and who needs supervision. Simples.
Or is it?
It may not be broken but it is very expensive. Get rid of a few brass hats and their attendant perks/pensions and the cuts in equipment and manning may not have to be so severe.
Precisely how would the RAF's cause be helped by reducing a slack handful of Air ranks?
I could go on...but most of you who are still serving know that cuts have be taken across the board. Has anyone tried to get hold of desk in MB? Sorry, that post is now gapped or rusticated to Wales/Bristol/RAF Little Snoring on the Wold/out-sourced.
Teeters
Thanks for the reply and I hope you enjoyed the cigars, but I still question what you actually gain by getting rid of those 3 or 4 ranks: what does it gain (apart from confusing all of our allies)?
Pontious
Whilst I still question the need to compare the military with a police force (we have massively different roles and responsibilities), I also question the logic behind making everyone a flt lt on graduation. Whilst it might work for the aircrew world (although I doubt it), it is unlikely to work across all branches and all 3 services. At present the Plt Off or 2nd Lt rank identifies someone as the most junior officer; people will instantly assume that they are not yet fully swept up in their branch/role, be that as a sqn shag operator, OC PSF or a platoon commander. They are identified as someone who is likely to need guidance/advice/mentoring etc. I am sure we all remember abos that were green shield flt lts on graduation from IOT - they were often approached for advice well beyond their knowledge/capabilities.
A few years ago (quite a few years ago now) there was a plan to get rid of the Plt Off rank. It was dumped as an irrelevance. I still cannot see what the benefits are of getting rid/altering our rank structure; it works. It isn't broken. It doesn't need fixing.
Thanks for the reply and I hope you enjoyed the cigars, but I still question what you actually gain by getting rid of those 3 or 4 ranks: what does it gain (apart from confusing all of our allies)?
Pontious
Then an inspector = flt lt therefore abolish PO/FO.
A few years ago (quite a few years ago now) there was a plan to get rid of the Plt Off rank. It was dumped as an irrelevance. I still cannot see what the benefits are of getting rid/altering our rank structure; it works. It isn't broken. It doesn't need fixing.
I am sure we all remember abos that were green shield flt lts on graduation from IOT - they were often approached for advice well beyond their knowledge/capabilities.
Last edited by BEagle; 6th Nov 2013 at 11:52.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Besides the GSFL, there was that other beast, AC Acting Cpl (unpaid).
You can differentiate the real thing from the uniform - stores fresh, still with nap and unlaundered from the well worn, shiney suited, and baggy kneed.
With aircrew, similar difference with stores creases and lack of badges.
As anyone in business will tell you, the savings in staff costs are alot more than just not having to pay salaries. The original post relates to numbers of senior officers in the forces and the unavoidable fact is that there are too many. And there comes a point where numbers in each rank are such that it makes sense to lose a few of those ranks.
And Little Snoring is alive and well - current squadron strength is 1 x C172 (I believe)
And Little Snoring is alive and well - current squadron strength is 1 x C172 (I believe)
Glad to hear Little Snoring thrives - used to live in the village and had my only ever Tiger Moth flight from there organised by Peter Charles (who used to crop spray from there) and piloted by Henry Labouchere. Thanks guys.