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Ratio of Air Marshals, Air Commodores and Group Captains in the RAF

What is the current ratio of Air Marshals, Air Commodores and Group Captains in the R.A.F. to units / squadrons etc.?

I was fascinated to see recent figures about the size of the Royal Navy, in particular a statement made in parliament that “There are now 40 admirals and 260 captains in the Royal Navy. However, as a result of defence cuts, there are only 19 active warships.”

So the Royal Navy has 15 times more commanding officers than active warships, with 40 admirals and 260 captains but just 19 ships.

The statistics were revealed by Tory MP James Clappison during a defence debate in the Commons on 17th October, here: House of Commons Hansard Debates for 17 Oct 2013 (pt 0002)

He highlighted the plight of the Navy by revealing there are now 13 captains for every destroyer and frigate, and about two admirals – who each earn more than £100,000 a year – per warship.

He said: ‘In the past the dream of a captain in the Navy might have been to command his own ship.’

‘Today, it might be that dream is simply to set foot on a ship.’

OK that’s the ratio in the Royal Navy. What is the current ratio of Air Marshals, Air Commodores and Group Captains in the R.A.F. to units / squadrons etc.?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warmtoast (Post 8133078)

So the Royal Navy has 15 times more commanding officers than active warships, with 40 admirals and 260 captains but just 19 ships.

Slightly disingenuous as command is usually restricted to just one branch. The Surgeon General et al will have no desire to command a ship.

Quote:

So the Royal Navy has 15 times more commanding officers than active warships, with 40 admirals and 260 captains but just 19 ships.

I do not think you need to be of Captain rank to be in command of a warship. - But I stand to be corrected.

Aaron.

As we all know there a far more senior officers at wing commander upwards than wings or squadron. Within the Med Branch and PMRAFNS, numerous wing commanders upwards, consultant surgeons anaesthetists etc are at least wing commander level and above add in Matrons as they used to be add in MiC/DNS and his staff. So the figure is misleading to say the lease, have not even mentioned engineering fighter control Regiment and admin and you have not exactly a cast of thousand but a few hundred.

Aaron:

A Captain of a ship is an appointment, not specifically a rank. A British SSBN is commanded by a Commander but his title is captain.

Didn't C Northcote Parkinson notice this some years ago?

After an excellent landing etc...

Quote:

Aaron:

A Captain of a ship is an appointment, not specifically a rank. A British SSBN is commanded by a Commander but his title is captain.

So there are even more Captains skulking around . . .

I rather enjoyed this paragraph

Quote:

Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): It is a great pleasure to see you in your new position, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I will talk about why the regimental system is so emotive for so many people in this House. I was in the Army, but I really wanted to join the Royal Air Force because my father was an RAF officer. However, he rather ruined it for me when I discovered that I was colour blind. I said, “Dad, that means I can’t fly and I can’t join the RAF.” He said, “That’s right son.” I said, “What about the Navy, dad?” He said, “Starboard and port are red and green. You’ve got to be able to see those.” So I said, “What about the Army?” He said, “Son, the Army will have anyone.”

Especially as Starboard and Port would be green and red :ok:

The answer is:

Far too many.

Warmtoast

Knock yourself out with the stats on page 6: http://www.dasa.mod.uk/publications/...april_2013.pdf

LJ :ok:

Toast

Despite the pedants, your point is clear.

For the RN, there are roughly 1400 officer (or slightly under 5% of the Service) at SO1 level and above. Given the responsibilities and demands we place on them, I do not consider this to be an unreasonable level.

Frankly I wonder why there are so many Flight Sgts and Warrant Officers these days - what sort of ratio is there between them and Squadrons? :E

LJ

Thanks for the stats - your post #10 - most illuminating.
So the RAF have:

300 Group Captains
80 Air Commodores
23 AVMs
9 Air Marshals
2 ACMs

Whatever do they all do?

They send each other memo's.

Someone's has got to use up the RAF's overstocking of pennants.

..

Quote:

Frankly I wonder why there are so many Flight Sgts and Warrant Officers these days - what sort of ratio is there between them and Squadrons? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...ilies/evil.gif

The principle difference between ranks and rodneys is the former tend to do stuff. :}

Quote:

Whatever do they all do?

Some years ago I was on a USN staff. We had 12 front line squadrons, 2 main operating bases, 4 deployment bases each with a full squadron deployed, numerous other minor detachment bases, a conversion squadron with 32 aircraft and we were lead by a junior 2 star admiral plus a one star commodore. The equivalent organisation in the RAF had 2 bases, 4 squadrons and a conversion unit (all smaller than their USN equivalents) and was headed up by a three star plus 3 two stars to back him up.

I would like to think the situation has changed, but I doubt it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warmtoast

I was fascinated to see recent figures about the size of the Royal Navy, in particular a statement made in parliament that “There are now 40 admirals and 260 captains in the Royal Navy. However, as a result of defence cuts, there are only 19 active warships.”

So the Royal Navy has 15 times more commanding officers than active warships, with 40 admirals and 260 captains but just 19 ships.

The statistics were revealed by Tory MP James Clappison during a defence debate in the Commons on 17th October, here: House of Commons Hansard Debates for 17 Oct 2013 (pt 0002)...

I don't know where Mr Clappison gets his "40 admirals" from. The RN website shows there are 31 serving officers of flag rank (i.e. admirals) in the Naval Service, including several engineers and a surgeon:

Senior Naval Staff: Serving & General Officers

Perhaps he was including the Chaplain of the Fleet and the six Royal Marines generals?

Or maybe he was thinking of:

Admiral of the Fleet HRH the Duke of Edinburgh (Lord High Admiral of the United Kingdom)
Admiral of the Fleet HRH the Prince of Wales (Honorary rank)
Admiral of the Fleet HM King Olav of Norway (Honorary rank)
Admiral of the Fleet Sir Edward Beckwith Ashmore, GCB DSC (First Sea Lord and Chief of the Defence Staff 1977 - no longer active)
Admiral of the Fleet Sir Benjamin Bathurst (First Sea Lord 1993-95 - no longer active)
Admiral HM King Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden (Honorary rank)
Rear Admiral Prince Michael of Kent (Honorary rank)
Rear Admiral Sir Frederick Donald Gosling, KCVO (Honorary appointment)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warmtoast

...He highlighted the plight of the Navy by revealing there are now 13 captains for every destroyer and frigate, and about two admirals – who each earn more than £100,000 a year – per warship...

Comparing the number of RN captains and admirals with the number of destroyers and frigates is just as silly as comparing the number of RAF squadron leaders with the number of combat aircraft squadrons. Apart from 19 DD/FF, the RN also runs, mans and maintains LPHs, LPDs, SSBNs, SSNs, offshore and inshore patrol vessels, fishery protection vessels, survey vessels, an ice patrol ship, MCMVs, naval air squadrons, shore establishments, naval bases, EOD units, Forward Support Units, etc., etc. Even the Royal Marines and the Royal Fleet Auxiliary come under the Fleet Commander's purview. As in the other services, senior officers also serve in national, NATO, EU and other HQs as well as in foreign exchange posts and embassies abroad.

There have already been swingeing reductions to 'the top brass' over the past few years (e.g. the RN now has only a single 4* (admiral) and two 3*s (vice-admirals) at the top) and I expect there are many more to come. However, let's get things in perspective. Essentially, rank now recognises the relative scales of pay, privileges and status needed to retain someone's services. For example, the RN's 'all of one company' ethos puts its doctors and dentists in uniform and gives them stripes appropriate to their relative professional status and seniority. Exceptionally, chaplains in the RN are not given stripes but there are understandable reasons for this and they are compensated in other ways.

I have used this analogy before but it's worth repeating. We can compare the Armed Forces with another public organisation to see the irrelevance of senior military rank to absolute pay, power and status:

AIM OF ORGANISATION

UK ARMED FORCES: To defend the United Kingdom, and Overseas Territories, its people and interests and to act as a force for good by strengthening international peace and security.

BBC: To educate, inform and entertain.

NUMBER OF FULL TIME EMPLOYEES (2013 FIGURES)

UK ARMED FORCES: c.170,000 uniformed personnel (excluding reserves and civil servants)

BBC: c.23,000 staff

SIZE OF ANNUAL BUDGET

UK ARMED FORCES: c.£42bn

BBC: c.£5bn

SALARY OF HEAD OF ORGANISATION

UK ARMED FORCES: Gen Sir Nick Houghton, Chief of Defence Staff - £240k (link)

BBC: Tony Hall, Director-General - £450k (down from £671k for Mark Thompson) (link)

OTHER STAFF WITH SALARIES OVER £200K

UK ARMED FORCES (link)

None. Maximum salary is currently £187k for a 4* RN Admiral/RM General in the Naval Service (1 in toto), normal General in the Army (4 in toto) or Air Chief Marshal in the RAF (2 in toto).

BBC (link)

Peter Salmon, Director, BBC North (£375k)
Helen Boarden, Director, Radio (£340k)
Tim Davie, CEO, BBC Worldwide & Director, Global (£335k)
Zarin Patel, Former Chief Financial Officer (£322k)
Lucy Adams, Director HR (£320k)
Bal Samra, Commercial Director (£315k)
Dominic Coles, Director of Operations (£300k)
James Purnell, Director, Strategy & Digital (£295k)
Ralph Rivera, Director, Future Media (£295k)
John Linwood, Chief Technology Officer (£280k)
Roger Mosey, Editorial Director (£270k)
Danny Cohen, Director, Television (£262k)
Daniel Danker, Former General Manager, Products & On Demand (£246k)
John Yorke, Controller of Drama Production and New Talent (£240k)
Ben Stephenson, Controller, Drama Commissioning (£240k)
Peter Horrocks, Director, Global News (£233k)
Janice Hadlow, Controller, BBC Two and Interim Controller, BBC Four (£227k)
Emma Swain, Head of Knowledge Commissioning (£220k)
Roger Wright, Controller, Radio 3 and Director, BBC Proms (£220k)
Beverley Tew, Group Finance Director (£214k)
Bob Shennan, Controller, Radio 2, 6 Music and Asian Network (£213k)
Mark Freeland, Head of Comedy (£212k)
Zai Bennett, Controller, BBC Three (£212k)
Anne Morrison, Training Academy Director (£210k)
Philip Almond, Director, Marketing (£210k)
Nick Betts, Controller of Business, Drama, Films and Acquisitions, Television (£210k)
Nicolas Brown, Director, Drama Productions, Vision (£210k)
Lisa Opie, Controller of Business, Knowledge and Daytime (£208k)
Shane Allen, Controller, Comedy Commissioning, Television (£207k)
Andy Griffee, Project Director, W1 (£207k)
Kate Harwood, Head of Drama, England (£205k)
Sarah Jones, Group General Counsel, Operations (£205k)
Graham Ellis, Controller Production and Deputy Director, Radio (£202k)
Mark Linsey, Controller, Entertainment Commissioning (£202k)

Several more BBC executives earn more than the heads of the RN, Army and RAF. Perhaps CNS, CGS and CAS are in the wrong game? They could be making much more money as the BBC's Head of Comedy.

Comedy is a serious business, FODPlod. :)

You otherwise make a very good point, imo.

It is an excellent post.

Just reinforces my opinion that the armed services have been let down by a lack of savvy at the top. The new pension terms will be a disaster unless someone gets a grip of the politicians-and quick!:uhoh:

OAP