Drinking, driving and flying
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Alcohol dependancy?
This means that drinking alcohol becomes an important, or sometimes the most important, factor in their life and they feel they’re unable to function without it.
But if you were ‘dependent’ on alcohol, you’d be stumbling around drunk every day, right? Not necessarily. There are varying degrees of alcohol dependence and they don’t always involve excessive levels of drinking. If you find that you ‘need’ to share a bottle of wine with your partner most nights of the week, or always go for a few pints after work, just to unwind, you’re likely to be drinking at a level that could affect your long-term health. You could also be becoming dependent on alcohol. If you find it very difficult to enjoy yourself or relax without having a drink, you could have become psychologically dependent on alcohol.
This means that drinking alcohol becomes an important, or sometimes the most important, factor in their life and they feel they’re unable to function without it.
But if you were ‘dependent’ on alcohol, you’d be stumbling around drunk every day, right? Not necessarily. There are varying degrees of alcohol dependence and they don’t always involve excessive levels of drinking. If you find that you ‘need’ to share a bottle of wine with your partner most nights of the week, or always go for a few pints after work, just to unwind, you’re likely to be drinking at a level that could affect your long-term health. You could also be becoming dependent on alcohol. If you find it very difficult to enjoy yourself or relax without having a drink, you could have become psychologically dependent on alcohol.
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Good thread, Roland. Being as vin hasnt responded to your translation requests, here goes; MRP. minimum rest period (free of duty), FDL. Flight duty limit, CAP 371/ subpart Q -document govening civilian UK and European hours limits.
The 9 thingies you mention relates to alcohol in breath. The act is worded in terms of blood alcohol which is 20mg per hundred ml of blood for pilots and other aircrew. That compares with 80 mg which is the UK drink drive limit, and also the limit for engineers and certain ops staff.
Arguably you have been subject to these limits since 2003 as there is nothing in the legislation to exempt anyone just because they are wearing a green suit, albeit its been unlikely to be put to the test. Being breathalysed isn't that common but it does happen especially in Holland, post incident of any kind or if you annoy security. Also bear in mind that in some countries (egNorway) you can be nicked- and go to jail -if one of your crew is over the limit even if you haven't touched a drop!
The 9 thingies you mention relates to alcohol in breath. The act is worded in terms of blood alcohol which is 20mg per hundred ml of blood for pilots and other aircrew. That compares with 80 mg which is the UK drink drive limit, and also the limit for engineers and certain ops staff.
Arguably you have been subject to these limits since 2003 as there is nothing in the legislation to exempt anyone just because they are wearing a green suit, albeit its been unlikely to be put to the test. Being breathalysed isn't that common but it does happen especially in Holland, post incident of any kind or if you annoy security. Also bear in mind that in some countries (egNorway) you can be nicked- and go to jail -if one of your crew is over the limit even if you haven't touched a drop!
Last edited by ShotOne; 27th Oct 2013 at 21:54.
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Thank you, ShotOne. Some of us haven't been keeping up with the civvi av regs. I know some of my colleagues here have an interest, but for we who who are lifers, the TLAs don't always make sense. Thanks.
Leon
It may seem that way to you; it is untrue. I have tried with and without, absolutely no doubt about it, I sleep much better without 'a few scoops.' Alcohol does not help you have meaningful sleep. Moreover, unless you intend to spend more than 4 days in the local time zone there is no point in acclimatising, unless you want to hit the bar when it's open and you are awake.
Having done it, the bar is an excellent place to build squadron confidence, but it is not the only one and should not impinge upon flying. Yes fatigue is just as much a problem when assessing performance, but accumulating fatigue and alcohol is plain stupid.
There is another reason for having a fews scoops on your first night down-route - adjusting to the local time zone
Having done it, the bar is an excellent place to build squadron confidence, but it is not the only one and should not impinge upon flying. Yes fatigue is just as much a problem when assessing performance, but accumulating fatigue and alcohol is plain stupid.
Last edited by beardy; 28th Oct 2013 at 05:24.
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No real change
Being in civil aviation I was approached by a military aviator friend about the civil regulations that I have been working with for some years and how this would effect the military.
The conclusion that we both arrived at was that there are no real changes for practical purposes, some of the civil regulations are a little different but nothing that will get you into trouble if you stay within your old military regulations.
The bottom line is that the only people who this will have any effect on are those who drink and fly.
I like most of you guys like a beer or two but only when the hangar doors are firmly shut.
The conclusion that we both arrived at was that there are no real changes for practical purposes, some of the civil regulations are a little different but nothing that will get you into trouble if you stay within your old military regulations.
The bottom line is that the only people who this will have any effect on are those who drink and fly.
I like most of you guys like a beer or two but only when the hangar doors are firmly shut.
Last edited by A and C; 28th Oct 2013 at 07:41.
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If you'll excuse the interruption, colquhoun et al conducted the research into alcohol and tracking tasks using matelots. This lead to the introduction of the breathalyser and the end of the naval tot. This was in the mid sixties. The impairment after one tot was considerable.
There is this paper from us military. May throw some light. The abstract and conclusion are worth a read.
here
There is this paper from us military. May throw some light. The abstract and conclusion are worth a read.
here
Drinking, Driving and Flying
The effects of alcohol on both confidence and actual performance were pretty clearly shown in an experiment reported in the British Medical Journal in 1958, which has stuck in what passes for my memory ever since.
A group of experienced Manchester Corporation bus drivers were taken to a disused airfield, along with their buses, and shown a gap between two bollards. Initially it was something like 8 ft 6 ins. for an 8 ft. wide bus. They were then asked if they would be confident of driving their bus through that gap and then asked to do so. This they duly did. The drivers were then asked to drink a single Scotch and soda and asked the same thing, but with a slightly smaller gap. In brief, as the drivers were fed with increasing doses of Scotch and the gaps were narrowed, there was a direct correlation between the increase of their confidence and their inability to actually fit the bus through the gap. Eventually they were trying to put their bus through gaps narrower than the bus, quite confident that they would succeed.
That’s probably a slight simplification, but subsequent Googling reveals the paper here if anybody’s interested: The Risk Taken in Driving Under the Influence of Alcohol
A group of experienced Manchester Corporation bus drivers were taken to a disused airfield, along with their buses, and shown a gap between two bollards. Initially it was something like 8 ft 6 ins. for an 8 ft. wide bus. They were then asked if they would be confident of driving their bus through that gap and then asked to do so. This they duly did. The drivers were then asked to drink a single Scotch and soda and asked the same thing, but with a slightly smaller gap. In brief, as the drivers were fed with increasing doses of Scotch and the gaps were narrowed, there was a direct correlation between the increase of their confidence and their inability to actually fit the bus through the gap. Eventually they were trying to put their bus through gaps narrower than the bus, quite confident that they would succeed.
That’s probably a slight simplification, but subsequent Googling reveals the paper here if anybody’s interested: The Risk Taken in Driving Under the Influence of Alcohol
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Alcohol metabolism
I think some people on here may have missed the point. And I mean that in the nicest possible way, because I did too.
Let's look at some figures:
The body metabolises or burns alcohol at a rate of about 16mg per hour, or 0.016 BAC. Exact figures vary depending on gender, weight, food in the stomach. Not the amount of alcohol consumed, interestingly. But for most 80kg males, it is very close to this figure.
Alcohol Metabolism (this is just one reference, there are many others that agree)
A pint of 5% beer contains about 28mg of alcohol. (568ml x 0.05)
It will take you about 1.5 - 2 hours to completely remove the alcohol from that pint from your system.
If you had downed 3 pints of beer at 10pm and went to bed, the alcohol in your stomach would have reached your blood stream by 11pm and begun to metabolise.
You would now have 84 mg of alcohol to get rid of, and a BAC of 0.084, which would put you over the drink/drive limit in the UK.
As this will reduce by 16mg per hour as your liver metabolises it, the alcohol will have been metabolised by about 0430 hrs.
By 0800 hrs, there will certainly not be a trace of alcohol in your system above your normal levels.
Let's find an example that will get you in trouble. Time is the key factor.
If you have a late one and end up drinking 5 pints around midnight:
Assuming it takes about an hour to digest beer (whiskey is faster, beer takes a bit longer) You will have 140mg of alcohol in your bloodstream by, say 0100hrs. It will take nearly nine hours to clear this. After 7 hours, at 0800hrs, your body will still have 28mg of alcohol in your bloodstream - giving you a BAC of 0.028. At 0900 hrs it should be 0.012. At 1000hrs you should be alcohol 'free'.
I have been pessimistic here and assumed a 'downing' at midnight. Drinking slowly over the evening will result in a lower BAC by 0100hrs.
There is a lot of comparison between the drink / drive limits and the flying limits. Remember - the drink drive limits are usually referred to "on the night". So I can have a pint of beer and drive my car, knowing that I have a BAC of around 0.3, whereas the limit is 0.8. I could probably get away with two...?
However, the flying limits are the 'next day' - after your body has had hours to metabolise the alcohol. You have to pack away a reasonable amount (ie a drinking session - not a big one, but a few sherbets nonetheless) to put yourself in harm's way 10 or 12 hours later.
In short - going to the mess after work for one or two pints is not going to be a problem. Nor is a couple of glasses of wine with or after dinner. The RTSA rules are just defining the old 'no alcohol in your system' of old with a new number: 0.02BAC.
Please throw spears. I may have made a gross miscalculation that I am not aware of here, but the maths is so simple, I am not sure how.
Thanks for reading.
Let's look at some figures:
The body metabolises or burns alcohol at a rate of about 16mg per hour, or 0.016 BAC. Exact figures vary depending on gender, weight, food in the stomach. Not the amount of alcohol consumed, interestingly. But for most 80kg males, it is very close to this figure.
Alcohol Metabolism (this is just one reference, there are many others that agree)
A pint of 5% beer contains about 28mg of alcohol. (568ml x 0.05)
It will take you about 1.5 - 2 hours to completely remove the alcohol from that pint from your system.
If you had downed 3 pints of beer at 10pm and went to bed, the alcohol in your stomach would have reached your blood stream by 11pm and begun to metabolise.
You would now have 84 mg of alcohol to get rid of, and a BAC of 0.084, which would put you over the drink/drive limit in the UK.
As this will reduce by 16mg per hour as your liver metabolises it, the alcohol will have been metabolised by about 0430 hrs.
By 0800 hrs, there will certainly not be a trace of alcohol in your system above your normal levels.
Let's find an example that will get you in trouble. Time is the key factor.
If you have a late one and end up drinking 5 pints around midnight:
Assuming it takes about an hour to digest beer (whiskey is faster, beer takes a bit longer) You will have 140mg of alcohol in your bloodstream by, say 0100hrs. It will take nearly nine hours to clear this. After 7 hours, at 0800hrs, your body will still have 28mg of alcohol in your bloodstream - giving you a BAC of 0.028. At 0900 hrs it should be 0.012. At 1000hrs you should be alcohol 'free'.
I have been pessimistic here and assumed a 'downing' at midnight. Drinking slowly over the evening will result in a lower BAC by 0100hrs.
There is a lot of comparison between the drink / drive limits and the flying limits. Remember - the drink drive limits are usually referred to "on the night". So I can have a pint of beer and drive my car, knowing that I have a BAC of around 0.3, whereas the limit is 0.8. I could probably get away with two...?
However, the flying limits are the 'next day' - after your body has had hours to metabolise the alcohol. You have to pack away a reasonable amount (ie a drinking session - not a big one, but a few sherbets nonetheless) to put yourself in harm's way 10 or 12 hours later.
In short - going to the mess after work for one or two pints is not going to be a problem. Nor is a couple of glasses of wine with or after dinner. The RTSA rules are just defining the old 'no alcohol in your system' of old with a new number: 0.02BAC.
Please throw spears. I may have made a gross miscalculation that I am not aware of here, but the maths is so simple, I am not sure how.
Thanks for reading.
How many accidents/incidents have uk mil had in last 20 years where alcohol was a direct or contributory cause?
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I must say that my wife was not impressed after we arrived back from det and the flying pilots asked for her to drop them home as they didn't feel they were under the limit to drive due to the previous nights drinking in Belgium.
high spirits
Not sure why now, but they have been talking about this for some time now. As others have said, even though alcohol in the system may have metabolised by the morning, the fact that alcohol may affect sleep by reducing REM means alcohol could possible be a contributory factor in causing fatigue.
The USAF mandates through AFIs that all aircrew must have a certain amount of rest before each flight and briefs this accordingly. The 12 hour bottle to throttle is also reiterated, with some skippers briefing 12 hours bottle to pre-flight show time.
How many accidents/incidents have uk mil had in last 20 years where alcohol was a direct or contributory cause?
Compare it with fatigue as a contributory cause factor. So why now? Where's the evidence? Is the drinking culture worse or better now?
Compare it with fatigue as a contributory cause factor. So why now? Where's the evidence? Is the drinking culture worse or better now?
The USAF mandates through AFIs that all aircrew must have a certain amount of rest before each flight and briefs this accordingly. The 12 hour bottle to throttle is also reiterated, with some skippers briefing 12 hours bottle to pre-flight show time.
Last edited by Toadstool; 30th Oct 2013 at 12:53.
Avoid imitations
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A pilot (Colt, Jag ISTR) was shoved in the sim and given an escalating emergency to handle. No problems, landed safely.
He was then given a half and left to marinade for half an hour or so and given the same scenario. Crashed and burned.
Just lucky first time or is there a moral here?
He was then given a half and left to marinade for half an hour or so and given the same scenario. Crashed and burned.
Just lucky first time or is there a moral here?
In the Olden Times, the rule was eight hours throttle to bottle!!
I remember standing next to a very nice flight engineer who qouted the rule "To be sure there should be no drinking within eight feet of the aircraft"
Irish rule of course!!
I remember standing next to a very nice flight engineer who qouted the rule "To be sure there should be no drinking within eight feet of the aircraft"
Irish rule of course!!
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The limits come into force as from 1st November and are:
In respect of a duty prescribed in regulation 5, the relevant limit is—
(a) in the case of breath, 9 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres;
(b) in the case of blood, 20 milligrammes of alcohol in100 millilitres; and
(c) in the case of urine, 27 milligrammes of alcohol in
100 millilitre
regulation 5 :
5.
The duties prescribed in this regulation are any d
uty—
(a)of a pilot of an aircraft during flight or when conducting a ground run;
(b)of any other member of the crew of an aircraft during flight;
(c)of a person on board an aircraft during flight to give or supervise training or to administer a test;
(d)as an air traffic controller;
(e)of an operator of a remotely-piloted aerial systemin flight;
(f)of any person in relation to the handling and use of a firearm when he has in his possession the firearm and ammunition capable of being discharged from the firearm;
(g)of a person doing any of the following in relationto the operation of a depth-charge launcher, firearm, mortar, rocket, or torpedo—
(i)handling missiles, fuses, charges or propellants;
(ii)firing or giving orders to fire;
(iii)calculating or setting a target area;
(iv)giving instructions about the location and bearing
of the target;
(v)deciding or setting the explosive effect;
(vi)ensuring that the missile or explosive functions co
rrectly in the target area;
(h)to supervise a person carrying out a duty within pa
ragraph (f) or (g);
(i)of a person handling, or supervising the handling,
of explosives.
Under Regulation 4 there are limits of
(a)in the case of breath, 35 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres;
(b)in the case of blood, 80 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres; and
(c)in the case of urine, 107 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres
in order
(o) to supervise, certify or carry out maintenance on an aircraft;
(p) to authorise a military flight
Link to the legislation here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...0132787_en.pdf
In respect of a duty prescribed in regulation 5, the relevant limit is—
(a) in the case of breath, 9 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres;
(b) in the case of blood, 20 milligrammes of alcohol in100 millilitres; and
(c) in the case of urine, 27 milligrammes of alcohol in
100 millilitre
regulation 5 :
5.
The duties prescribed in this regulation are any d
uty—
(a)of a pilot of an aircraft during flight or when conducting a ground run;
(b)of any other member of the crew of an aircraft during flight;
(c)of a person on board an aircraft during flight to give or supervise training or to administer a test;
(d)as an air traffic controller;
(e)of an operator of a remotely-piloted aerial systemin flight;
(f)of any person in relation to the handling and use of a firearm when he has in his possession the firearm and ammunition capable of being discharged from the firearm;
(g)of a person doing any of the following in relationto the operation of a depth-charge launcher, firearm, mortar, rocket, or torpedo—
(i)handling missiles, fuses, charges or propellants;
(ii)firing or giving orders to fire;
(iii)calculating or setting a target area;
(iv)giving instructions about the location and bearing
of the target;
(v)deciding or setting the explosive effect;
(vi)ensuring that the missile or explosive functions co
rrectly in the target area;
(h)to supervise a person carrying out a duty within pa
ragraph (f) or (g);
(i)of a person handling, or supervising the handling,
of explosives.
Under Regulation 4 there are limits of
(a)in the case of breath, 35 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres;
(b)in the case of blood, 80 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres; and
(c)in the case of urine, 107 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres
in order
(o) to supervise, certify or carry out maintenance on an aircraft;
(p) to authorise a military flight
Link to the legislation here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...0132787_en.pdf
Gentleman Aviator
Very well put with a key takeaway that whisky is burnt off quicker than beer!
I reckon most of us could shift 3 x doubles quite a bit quicker than 6 pints ....
