Firemen to get better pension terms than Military.
Thread Starter
The basic problem is that our VSO's will be out-manoevered by the politicians.
It is unacceptable that Service personel have been, are, and will be disadvantaged compared to other public services pension schemes.
OAP
It is unacceptable that Service personel have been, are, and will be disadvantaged compared to other public services pension schemes.
OAP
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I am retired now; so for a moment, please excuse my use of the word "we" when I refer to the RAF.
It really doesn't matter what they are paid. It only matters what we are paid!
Rgds SOS
It really doesn't matter what they are paid. It only matters what we are paid!
Rgds SOS
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Why are people surprised about this?
It's because firefighters have a strong trade union that stands up to the government. We have spineless yes men. That is why they get better pension terms and the goalposts for our pensions get moved in 2015.
It's because firefighters have a strong trade union that stands up to the government. We have spineless yes men. That is why they get better pension terms and the goalposts for our pensions get moved in 2015.
Last edited by gr4techie; 19th Oct 2013 at 16:41.
You could be right - FBU has always been one of the more militant left wing unions the Local Authorities have had to deal with - Fire Brigades' pay ISTR is not Government negotiated but by the Local Government Association or some such body.
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Like probably not a few posters my (preserved) pensionable service was as a Cold War Warrior. I think it's fair to say that had the WarPac hordes decided to bust through the Fulda Gap with the expected air raids on UK all the Emergency Services as well as the Forces would have all been in it together to misquote Call me Dave!
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
Thread Starter
But the question remains. Why should an unfit Fireman be able to leave that service early on a full pension but, an unfit Serviceman or Woman will be cashiered and will lose out on their pension? Where is the Armed Forces Covenant here? I claim that this disparity, and other proposed pension terms, are in direct contradiction of the above Government policy, ie the Armed Forces Covenant (see UK.GOV). Let us see some action from our superiors, not just the usual "steady on old chap, don't rock the boat or you will make it worse for us all" crap.
OAP
OAP
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Onceapilot....
It is acceptable because the majority of firefighters involved initially signed up to a 30yr contract. This is why our contributions are 14.2% not 6 or 7% which most people pay like my wife in the NHS.
Here is the issue. When I was 19 and joined if I knew then I would have to do the physically demanding job of a firefighter till I'm 60 I would have chose not to pay all that money into the pension and maybe invested else where or brought a buy to let.
Now 15 years into my career they say I have to stay on another 10 years paying 14.2% to receive the same pension I thought for the last 15yrs I was getting at 50. I can't withdraw my pension that I've already paid in and if I pull out now I won't see what I paid in till I'm 67. I don't have a choice here, if I want a full pension I must stay on to till I'm 60.
New people get that choice from day one so it's up front what the deal is before committing.
The fitness standard is level 9.2 in the shuttle run. I'm pretty sure I won't do this till I'm 60. If I can't do this the protection were (hopefully) getting means I won't just get sacked on the grounds of capability, I can be redeployed into a non operational role or if I really fall apart towards my late 50's leave with the pension I have earned up to that point instead of not getting it till I'm 67.
It is acceptable because the majority of firefighters involved initially signed up to a 30yr contract. This is why our contributions are 14.2% not 6 or 7% which most people pay like my wife in the NHS.
Here is the issue. When I was 19 and joined if I knew then I would have to do the physically demanding job of a firefighter till I'm 60 I would have chose not to pay all that money into the pension and maybe invested else where or brought a buy to let.
Now 15 years into my career they say I have to stay on another 10 years paying 14.2% to receive the same pension I thought for the last 15yrs I was getting at 50. I can't withdraw my pension that I've already paid in and if I pull out now I won't see what I paid in till I'm 67. I don't have a choice here, if I want a full pension I must stay on to till I'm 60.
New people get that choice from day one so it's up front what the deal is before committing.
The fitness standard is level 9.2 in the shuttle run. I'm pretty sure I won't do this till I'm 60. If I can't do this the protection were (hopefully) getting means I won't just get sacked on the grounds of capability, I can be redeployed into a non operational role or if I really fall apart towards my late 50's leave with the pension I have earned up to that point instead of not getting it till I'm 67.
Here we go, a list of coppers that have fallen in the past 10 years. I'd wager that the military have lost a similar number in peacetime training (including a CinC who tragically died doing a RAF Triathlon):
I make that 17 in 10 years or 1.7 a year. So I don't buy into the fact that being a copper is any more dangerous (or a fireman) than being in HMForces.
For firemen their rate was 36 due to all causes between 1997-2007 (see http://www.firetactics.com/fbu_fatalities_report.pdf). So about 3.6 a year. On a major exercise we normally lose a serviceman to a RTA or some other training accident alone.
So all in all, I don't see that being in the emergency services is any more dangerous than being the Armed Forces (even when you discount TELIC/HERRICK). In fact, looking at the stats for 2012 (http://www.dasa.mod.uk/publications/.../2012/2012.pdf) HMForces lost 41 personnel in accidents whilst serving alone!
LJ
Gerald Walker PC 42 Nottinghamshire Police 9 January 2003 Run over
Stephen Robin Oake, QGM DC 40 Greater Manchester Police 14 January 2003 Stabbed
Andrew James PC 38 South Wales Police 2 August 2003 Accidentally run over while pursuing burglar on foot
Thomas Andrew Jackson PC 46 South Yorkshire Police 13 December 2003 Collapsed while dispersing rioters
Ian Nigel Broadhurst PC 34 West Yorkshire Police 26 December 2003 Shot
Michael Swindells, QGM DC 44 West Midlands Police 21 May 2004 Stabbed
Sharon Beshenivsky PC 38 West Yorkshire Police 18 November 2005 Shot
Joseph Geoffrey Carroll PC 46 Northumbria Police 13 April 2006 Road traffic accident while transporting a prisoner
Conal Daood Hills PC 36 West Yorkshire Police 19 November 2006 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Richard Gray PC 43 West Mercia Constabulary 6 May 2007 Shot
Jonathan Charles Henry PC 36 Bedfordshire Police 11 June 2007 Stabbed
Christopher Roberts PC 47 Metropolitan Police Service 26 December 2007 Collapsed and died after a violent arrest
Gary Toms PC 26 Metropolitan Police Service 11 April 2009 Run over
Ian Dibell PC 41 Essex Police 9 July 2012 Shot
Fiona Bone PC 32 Greater Manchester Police 18 September 2012 Shot
Nicola Hughes PC 23 Greater Manchester Police 18 September 2012 Shot
Adele Yvette Cashman DC 30 Metropolitan Police Service 5 November 2012 Collapsed while pursuing two robbery suspects and later died
Stephen Robin Oake, QGM DC 40 Greater Manchester Police 14 January 2003 Stabbed
Andrew James PC 38 South Wales Police 2 August 2003 Accidentally run over while pursuing burglar on foot
Thomas Andrew Jackson PC 46 South Yorkshire Police 13 December 2003 Collapsed while dispersing rioters
Ian Nigel Broadhurst PC 34 West Yorkshire Police 26 December 2003 Shot
Michael Swindells, QGM DC 44 West Midlands Police 21 May 2004 Stabbed
Sharon Beshenivsky PC 38 West Yorkshire Police 18 November 2005 Shot
Joseph Geoffrey Carroll PC 46 Northumbria Police 13 April 2006 Road traffic accident while transporting a prisoner
Conal Daood Hills PC 36 West Yorkshire Police 19 November 2006 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Richard Gray PC 43 West Mercia Constabulary 6 May 2007 Shot
Jonathan Charles Henry PC 36 Bedfordshire Police 11 June 2007 Stabbed
Christopher Roberts PC 47 Metropolitan Police Service 26 December 2007 Collapsed and died after a violent arrest
Gary Toms PC 26 Metropolitan Police Service 11 April 2009 Run over
Ian Dibell PC 41 Essex Police 9 July 2012 Shot
Fiona Bone PC 32 Greater Manchester Police 18 September 2012 Shot
Nicola Hughes PC 23 Greater Manchester Police 18 September 2012 Shot
Adele Yvette Cashman DC 30 Metropolitan Police Service 5 November 2012 Collapsed while pursuing two robbery suspects and later died
For firemen their rate was 36 due to all causes between 1997-2007 (see http://www.firetactics.com/fbu_fatalities_report.pdf). So about 3.6 a year. On a major exercise we normally lose a serviceman to a RTA or some other training accident alone.
So all in all, I don't see that being in the emergency services is any more dangerous than being the Armed Forces (even when you discount TELIC/HERRICK). In fact, looking at the stats for 2012 (http://www.dasa.mod.uk/publications/.../2012/2012.pdf) HMForces lost 41 personnel in accidents whilst serving alone!
LJ
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 19th Oct 2013 at 19:41.
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Y'know, if ya still like it in the mob, s*itty pay rises, cocking around with the pension, absolutely no joy in the work and working for a bunch of chiselers, then fine.
Fact is there are good jobs in the real world: better pay, fewer hours, more fun, less stress. Oh, and final salary pensions too.
Fact is there are good jobs in the real world: better pay, fewer hours, more fun, less stress. Oh, and final salary pensions too.
Nicely stated WW.
"Why are people surprised about this?
It's because firefighters have a strong trade union that stands up to the government. We have spineless yes men. That is why they get better pension terms and the goalposts for our pensions get moved in 2015. "
If those pilots that leave can get an airline job, theirs may be the most militant of unions in the UK.
I worked for a police organisation for a few years at a senior rank and my "police civil servant" Pension from them earned more than twice that of a reputable large aviation company in 2/5ths of the time. That was the only good reason for staying there (but not enough reason for me).
Yes. I believe they are right to fight, and fight hard, for their pensions and conditions.
"Why are people surprised about this?
It's because firefighters have a strong trade union that stands up to the government. We have spineless yes men. That is why they get better pension terms and the goalposts for our pensions get moved in 2015. "
If those pilots that leave can get an airline job, theirs may be the most militant of unions in the UK.
I worked for a police organisation for a few years at a senior rank and my "police civil servant" Pension from them earned more than twice that of a reputable large aviation company in 2/5ths of the time. That was the only good reason for staying there (but not enough reason for me).
Yes. I believe they are right to fight, and fight hard, for their pensions and conditions.
fight hard
The B Word
Last edited by The B Word; 19th Oct 2013 at 22:41.
Leon, further to your post,
Without wishing to start a "we've lost more people than you" contest (because, frankly, it's a very sad affair) I can think of 10 personal friends killed in the UK in peacetime in the past 10 years. All RAF, all Pilot/WSO, so I'd reckon that the tri-service list would be bigger.
Like I said, not starting a contest. But it would be a worryingly high number I suspect.
Without wishing to start a "we've lost more people than you" contest (because, frankly, it's a very sad affair) I can think of 10 personal friends killed in the UK in peacetime in the past 10 years. All RAF, all Pilot/WSO, so I'd reckon that the tri-service list would be bigger.
Like I said, not starting a contest. But it would be a worryingly high number I suspect.
Last edited by PPRuNeUser0211; 20th Oct 2013 at 09:37.
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Fact is there are good jobs in the real world: better pay, fewer hours, more fun, less stress. Oh, and final salary pensions too.
Most companies don't offer a final salary scheme to new hires and are moving existing employee's and pensioners of the company books.
I know, I'm now a 'client' of an insurance company.
Pba target
I couldn't agree more and others please do not think that was my intent. I just wanted to show that Trim Stab's assumptions were unfounded. I reckon if you add it all up between the Armed Forces and Civilian Emergency Services, we're all around the same - some higher one year (like the sad Nimrod loss or the loss of the 2 female PCs) and some lower the next.
But back to the original thread of the post - do I believe that Firemen deserve special treatment over and above that of HMForces or the Police? No, I don't!
Furthermore, many of the servicemen who have had their lives disrupted by the FBU's action are on significantly less money than their Emergency Service colleagues - we're all in this together? Not a chance, the Firemen are in it for themselves when it comes to this dispute and never mind the rest.
Recently I have had a lot of contact with some of the country's Fire and Rescue Service (FRS). Some don't have second jobs, but an awful lot do. Looking in the local FRS Car Park, there are an awful lot of <3 year old BMWs, Audi TTs and even heard of a bog standard fireman who drives an Aston Martin (his 2nd business is scrap metal and his closeness to fire damaged metal constructed objects seems to spookily compliment each other!).
So in sum, it is time to weed out the rotten apples in the FRS who are taking the p!ss and then, just maybe, you might generate some sympathy from the masses.
lJ
I couldn't agree more and others please do not think that was my intent. I just wanted to show that Trim Stab's assumptions were unfounded. I reckon if you add it all up between the Armed Forces and Civilian Emergency Services, we're all around the same - some higher one year (like the sad Nimrod loss or the loss of the 2 female PCs) and some lower the next.
But back to the original thread of the post - do I believe that Firemen deserve special treatment over and above that of HMForces or the Police? No, I don't!
Furthermore, many of the servicemen who have had their lives disrupted by the FBU's action are on significantly less money than their Emergency Service colleagues - we're all in this together? Not a chance, the Firemen are in it for themselves when it comes to this dispute and never mind the rest.
Recently I have had a lot of contact with some of the country's Fire and Rescue Service (FRS). Some don't have second jobs, but an awful lot do. Looking in the local FRS Car Park, there are an awful lot of <3 year old BMWs, Audi TTs and even heard of a bog standard fireman who drives an Aston Martin (his 2nd business is scrap metal and his closeness to fire damaged metal constructed objects seems to spookily compliment each other!).
So in sum, it is time to weed out the rotten apples in the FRS who are taking the p!ss and then, just maybe, you might generate some sympathy from the masses.
lJ
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Not a lot of final salary schemes in private industry these days.
Most companies don't offer a final salary scheme to new hires and are moving existing employee's and pensioners of the company books.
Most companies don't offer a final salary scheme to new hires and are moving existing employee's and pensioners of the company books.
I'm not in any way saying it was the reason I wanted the job, but it's certainly a nice little bonus.
Last edited by Willard Whyte; 20th Oct 2013 at 16:28.
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ANYONE who has an issue about public sector pensions has got to accept some facts first. It doesn't make what is happening right, and even defending the change isn't the issue. But it does place it in context.
Al Rush | The meek might inherit the earth..
For partly these reasons, the state has already announced it is going to sell the book of business for anyone who took out a student loan for tertiary education between 1997/8 and 2012). It is going to change the terms of that contract too, and raise the repayment interest rate by 3% in order to make the debt book more attractive. It needs the £10 billions. Do former students have a Union fronted by someone who has to justify members paying his/her pension contribution?
Added: We have to pay down the debt or we will have no state pension/NHS ourselves and/or our kids will curse us forever and a day. I concede that me saying this might smack of "I'm alright Jack" hypocrisy - I have an unfunded pension. I don't think it's right and I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't have what we were promised. I'm saying that I don't think we can have what we were promised and that we have no choice but to accept it with gritted teeth.
Al Rush | The meek might inherit the earth..
For partly these reasons, the state has already announced it is going to sell the book of business for anyone who took out a student loan for tertiary education between 1997/8 and 2012). It is going to change the terms of that contract too, and raise the repayment interest rate by 3% in order to make the debt book more attractive. It needs the £10 billions. Do former students have a Union fronted by someone who has to justify members paying his/her pension contribution?
Added: We have to pay down the debt or we will have no state pension/NHS ourselves and/or our kids will curse us forever and a day. I concede that me saying this might smack of "I'm alright Jack" hypocrisy - I have an unfunded pension. I don't think it's right and I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't have what we were promised. I'm saying that I don't think we can have what we were promised and that we have no choice but to accept it with gritted teeth.
Last edited by Al R; 21st Oct 2013 at 07:31.
Al
Thanks for the link
I am really shocked (alright, not really!) at the annual salaries of the Union leaders...
Bob Crow (RMT) - £79,564 in salary, £26,115 in pension contributions, £13,013 expenses
John Hannett (USDAW) - £81,742 salary, £16,389 pension contributions
Billy Hayes (CWU) - £83,530 salary, £14,190 pension contributions
Sally Hunt (UCU) - £63,743 salary, £7,612 pension contributions, £2705 car benefit (start of June 2006 to end of May 2007)
Paul Kenny (GMB) - £81,000 salary, £21,000 superannuation (pension contributions), £8,000 car
Dave Prentis (Unison) - £92,187 salary, £23,603 pension contributions, £11,646 expenses and car benefit
Derek Simpson (Unite-Amicus) - £62,673 salary, £16,156 pension contributions, £13,333 car allowance, £26,181 housing benefit
Mark Serwotka (PCS) - £82,094 salary, £26,104 pensions contributions, £2,245 additional housing cost allowance and additional housing cost supplement
Steve Sinnott (NUT) - £99,846 salary, £23,963 pension contributions
Tony Woodley (Unite-TGWU) - £59,333 salary, £9,552 pension contributions, car fuel £3,360
Matt Wrack (FBU) - £66,389 salary, £44,281 pension contributions, £5,134 car
Snouts in the trough!
Thanks for the link
I am really shocked (alright, not really!) at the annual salaries of the Union leaders...
Bob Crow (RMT) - £79,564 in salary, £26,115 in pension contributions, £13,013 expenses
John Hannett (USDAW) - £81,742 salary, £16,389 pension contributions
Billy Hayes (CWU) - £83,530 salary, £14,190 pension contributions
Sally Hunt (UCU) - £63,743 salary, £7,612 pension contributions, £2705 car benefit (start of June 2006 to end of May 2007)
Paul Kenny (GMB) - £81,000 salary, £21,000 superannuation (pension contributions), £8,000 car
Dave Prentis (Unison) - £92,187 salary, £23,603 pension contributions, £11,646 expenses and car benefit
Derek Simpson (Unite-Amicus) - £62,673 salary, £16,156 pension contributions, £13,333 car allowance, £26,181 housing benefit
Mark Serwotka (PCS) - £82,094 salary, £26,104 pensions contributions, £2,245 additional housing cost allowance and additional housing cost supplement
Steve Sinnott (NUT) - £99,846 salary, £23,963 pension contributions
Tony Woodley (Unite-TGWU) - £59,333 salary, £9,552 pension contributions, car fuel £3,360
Matt Wrack (FBU) - £66,389 salary, £44,281 pension contributions, £5,134 car
Snouts in the trough!