IRA - Can we forgive and forget?
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IRA - Can we forgive and forget?
I recently moved to Warrington, the scene of a horrific IRA bombing nearly 30 yrs ago. Just around the corner from our house is the Peace Centre, dedicated to the 2 young children killed by the bombs. Today, the (ex) IRA Chief, Martin McGuinness has been invited to make a speech there. I am not happy that he is here, in fact every shocking moment, including the funerals of my friends, has flashed back this morning.
I know that I should forgive, but I feel that McGuinness is pure evil, right to the core. I want to protest today, but does that make me as bad as the Belfast bigots?
I know that I should forgive, but I feel that McGuinness is pure evil, right to the core. I want to protest today, but does that make me as bad as the Belfast bigots?
Avoid imitations
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I know that I should forgive, but I feel that McGuinness is pure evil, right to the core. I want to protest today, but does that make me as bad as the Belfast bigots?
“To err is human, to forgive is divine.”
It's relatively easy to forgive someone that errs, but there is a big difference between an error and multiple, deliberate, diabolical atrocities. Your feelings are probably perfectly understandable. I'm sure the debate here could get quite heated and I'm sure we'll see some pretty interesting views.
You are certainly not alone in your outlook and it's easy to see why.
It's relatively easy to forgive someone that errs, but there is a big difference between an error and multiple, deliberate, diabolical atrocities. Your feelings are probably perfectly understandable. I'm sure the debate here could get quite heated and I'm sure we'll see some pretty interesting views.
You are certainly not alone in your outlook and it's easy to see why.
No JT, it doesn't. I heard this on the news this morning and was completely disgusted. I hope Warrington give him a very frosty reception. A lecture on peace from McGuinness is a joke.
Ivor
Ivor
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Difficult call, my beef is with the man, not the organisation. Even at the time, I sort of accepted why they were doing it. A couple of the main players had so little respect for life, they were in the Robert Mugabe/Saddam mould.
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Jayteeto
For someone like me who only saw the conflict in the papers and on TV it's a very hard question to answer so for anyone directly involved then it must be a nightmare to figure out.
I don't think there's ever going to be a real answer, for every yes there will be a no.
I agree with you in that the man should not be allowed to speak at such an event where his "side" was responsible for deaths of innocent people. Even more so when these included children.
But in order to move on then there has to be some form of forgiveness otherwise we end up going around in circles. I certainly would not want to return to the bloody mess of years ago.
Regarding PN's question I would have hoped he ended up on trial in Nuremburg and sentenced in accordance with any verdict. I have always regretted that in some cases HMG have not pursued anyone for criminal acts in order to secure a brownie point or two.
For someone like me who only saw the conflict in the papers and on TV it's a very hard question to answer so for anyone directly involved then it must be a nightmare to figure out.
I don't think there's ever going to be a real answer, for every yes there will be a no.
I agree with you in that the man should not be allowed to speak at such an event where his "side" was responsible for deaths of innocent people. Even more so when these included children.
But in order to move on then there has to be some form of forgiveness otherwise we end up going around in circles. I certainly would not want to return to the bloody mess of years ago.
Regarding PN's question I would have hoped he ended up on trial in Nuremburg and sentenced in accordance with any verdict. I have always regretted that in some cases HMG have not pursued anyone for criminal acts in order to secure a brownie point or two.
Last edited by clicker; 18th Sep 2013 at 10:18.
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Bastards
If a person chooses to kill children, with a bomb (however long ago it was), he is in the same category as Bashar Al-Assad (the useless and short sighted ophthalmologist!), the Al-Qaida morons and the idiots who are slaughtering innocent families in the so called "Democratic Republic of Congo".
He is a murderer!
We would be better off listening to peace speeches from someone who hasn't killed innocent children!
Rgds SOS
He is a murderer!
We would be better off listening to peace speeches from someone who hasn't killed innocent children!
Rgds SOS
PN:-
Or the Imperial Japanese Army? At least the German Nation has disowned the crimes committed under the Nazi regime. Japan never has, and the crimes committed in the 30s and 40s were done with relish right down to Pte. Forgiveness starts with remorse.
And if he had been in the German Army 70 years ago?
My other half has been in the presence of Adams, she said he just radiated pure evil, I suspect McGuiness is the same. Maybe one day they will meet their day of judgement, any files that could be released 'accidentley' showing the were 'agent steakeknife's' handlers for the RUC Special Branch MI5/6 and the 'det'.
Last edited by air pig; 18th Sep 2013 at 11:19.
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Certainly a thought provoking question and some excellent answers. My sister has just returned from a cruise aboard the Queen Mary which visited the port of Hamburg. Every-time this ship visits that port the local people turn out in their thousands to greet the ship. What an amazing gesture and how nice to see how we can so readily forgive and forget. BUT.....
Your query bought a lump to my throat and as has been said by a number of contributors, this person is evil, he is most certainly not a gentleman and how can any reasonably minded person look that evil thing in the eye and shake its hand!! To condone the deliberate and yes I mean deliberate bombing of an area where innocent women and children will be killed is an act which surely cannot be forgiven? To condone and probably authorise this deed is deserving of the severest punishment this nation can award but instead we honour this despicable person.
I have tried my hardest not to be too inflammatory and I just hope that one day justice will be done and when those ashes to ashes are cast over the graves, those ashes are just the beginning of a very hot reception.
are you better off boycotting this embarrassing fiasco?
Your query bought a lump to my throat and as has been said by a number of contributors, this person is evil, he is most certainly not a gentleman and how can any reasonably minded person look that evil thing in the eye and shake its hand!! To condone the deliberate and yes I mean deliberate bombing of an area where innocent women and children will be killed is an act which surely cannot be forgiven? To condone and probably authorise this deed is deserving of the severest punishment this nation can award but instead we honour this despicable person.
I have tried my hardest not to be too inflammatory and I just hope that one day justice will be done and when those ashes to ashes are cast over the graves, those ashes are just the beginning of a very hot reception.
are you better off boycotting this embarrassing fiasco?
conversely, i know people who deal with McGuinness on a fairly regular basis, and i also know PIRA people from the 1980's - their view of McGuinness is certainly one of ruthlessness, but not of casual cruelty or indifference to violence.
its interesting that its the father of one of the children murdered in Warrington who invited McGuinness - having met him on several occasions previously - one would have thought that he had a greater right to forgive or forget than many others, though of course he has said explicitly that he isn't within a thousand miles of forgiving PIRA for the death of his son...
its interesting that its the father of one of the children murdered in Warrington who invited McGuinness - having met him on several occasions previously - one would have thought that he had a greater right to forgive or forget than many others, though of course he has said explicitly that he isn't within a thousand miles of forgiving PIRA for the death of his son...
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Just trust me on this...
The military had all the intelligence/evidence it needed to clearly demonstrate that both Adams and McGuinness were active members of the Provisional IRA Council in the early 1980's when they were professing to be "political". They were directing PIRA policy so the blood is on their hands just the same as it is on those who committed the actual acts. The problem was that arresting them would have been politically "awkward" because we couldn't be seen to be arresting political "leaders".
The military had all the intelligence/evidence it needed to clearly demonstrate that both Adams and McGuinness were active members of the Provisional IRA Council in the early 1980's when they were professing to be "political". They were directing PIRA policy so the blood is on their hands just the same as it is on those who committed the actual acts. The problem was that arresting them would have been politically "awkward" because we couldn't be seen to be arresting political "leaders".
Glojo,
look at what you've written, and ask yourself if the RAF has not dropped a bomb in the last 20 years into an area it knows there are likely to be innocents, but where the military need to engage a particular target over-rode the potential collateral damage.
if you can't think of a single one, then you're not trying hard enough.
look at what you've written, and ask yourself if the RAF has not dropped a bomb in the last 20 years into an area it knows there are likely to be innocents, but where the military need to engage a particular target over-rode the potential collateral damage.
if you can't think of a single one, then you're not trying hard enough.
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cokecan
conversely, i know people who deal with McGuinness on a fairly regular basis, and i also know PIRA people from the 1980's - their view of McGuinness is certainly one of ruthlessness, but not of casual cruelty or indifference to violence
Rgds SOS
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Originally Posted by cokecan
Glojo,
look at what you've written, and ask yourself if the RAF has not dropped a bomb in the last 20 years into an area it knows there are likely to be innocents, but where the military need to engage a particular target over-rode the potential collateral damage.
if you can't think of a single one, then you're not trying hard enough.
look at what you've written, and ask yourself if the RAF has not dropped a bomb in the last 20 years into an area it knows there are likely to be innocents, but where the military need to engage a particular target over-rode the potential collateral damage.
if you can't think of a single one, then you're not trying hard enough.
If you are asking me to think of an occassion where a military pilot of any service was asked to bomb an area which they knew to be only occupied by innocent women and children going about their daily chores then I would like to think you know the answer.
Respect to anyone that can forgive those that commit the ultimate crime against their family and I am not going to reply to that point as it is so emotive and of course personal.
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To achieve his objectives nowadays, he requires an audience, whether interested onlookers or protesters is not relevent.
Mindfull of this, the best thing that everybody could dois stay away.
Few people have been directly affected by the IRA in the big scheme of things and therefore nonchallence by the majority is the inevitable order of the day. One day people die and when that day comes, the living have the choice of which lavatory they choose to use.
Mindfull of this, the best thing that everybody could dois stay away.
Few people have been directly affected by the IRA in the big scheme of things and therefore nonchallence by the majority is the inevitable order of the day. One day people die and when that day comes, the living have the choice of which lavatory they choose to use.
Last edited by Yozzer; 18th Sep 2013 at 12:16. Reason: Spulling
SOSL
more complicted than that.
he, or at least AC PIRA, ordered bombs to be detonated in English towns to 'spread the pain' outside London. the concept of operations was to have warning phone calls to reduce collateral damage, but not to give the police too much time so that there was no real fear. the ideal result being lots of economic damage, quite a bit of fear/panic/close shaves and the police being run off their feet - but if no one was killed, or very few people were killed (in these attacks on economic targets rather than the intentionally lethal attacks on military/political targets), then PIRA wouldn't lose any sleep.
the trick was to give warnings that would be resonably effective, but not so generous so that there was no panic in the effort to clear the area. sometimes they got that right, sometimes they did not. it is however fundamental to understanding PIRA bombing campaigns to grsp that PIRA was targetting a concept - the carefree saturday afternoon at the shops - far more than it targetted individuals.
anyone who disputes that mass casualties were not PIRA's intention in every attack they made ought to ask themselves why PIRA gave warnings in the first place.
he, or at least AC PIRA, ordered bombs to be detonated in English towns to 'spread the pain' outside London. the concept of operations was to have warning phone calls to reduce collateral damage, but not to give the police too much time so that there was no real fear. the ideal result being lots of economic damage, quite a bit of fear/panic/close shaves and the police being run off their feet - but if no one was killed, or very few people were killed (in these attacks on economic targets rather than the intentionally lethal attacks on military/political targets), then PIRA wouldn't lose any sleep.
the trick was to give warnings that would be resonably effective, but not so generous so that there was no panic in the effort to clear the area. sometimes they got that right, sometimes they did not. it is however fundamental to understanding PIRA bombing campaigns to grsp that PIRA was targetting a concept - the carefree saturday afternoon at the shops - far more than it targetted individuals.
anyone who disputes that mass casualties were not PIRA's intention in every attack they made ought to ask themselves why PIRA gave warnings in the first place.