IRA - Can we forgive and forget?
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CG
If there's absolutely no chance of forgiveness then none of us ever move forward and the world remains doomed to be a nasty and bitter place forever, constantly festering over old wounds. At some point, at least one party has to move on and accept that what has gone before cannot be changed by further aggression, protest or quarrel.
Time is certainly a big factor in the healing after every incident / atrocity and the OP may feel that insufficient time has passed since Warrington bomb, but at some juncture there has to be progress from either, or all aggrieved parties. I can understand the feelings from the OP but he'd be the bigger man to stay away, maybe not yet forgiving, but at least accepting of some form of progress. Continued hate doesn't bring people back.
Time is certainly a big factor in the healing after every incident / atrocity and the OP may feel that insufficient time has passed since Warrington bomb, but at some juncture there has to be progress from either, or all aggrieved parties. I can understand the feelings from the OP but he'd be the bigger man to stay away, maybe not yet forgiving, but at least accepting of some form of progress. Continued hate doesn't bring people back.
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A very well written post Bastadeux.
I find it incredibly unpalatable the McG is be allowed this public forum, like many maybe because I was young in the mob when the horrors of the 80s unfolded.
How we all behave now, though, lays the foundations for future generations and we all want the best for our kids.
I find it incredibly unpalatable the McG is be allowed this public forum, like many maybe because I was young in the mob when the horrors of the 80s unfolded.
How we all behave now, though, lays the foundations for future generations and we all want the best for our kids.
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jayteeto - Well done on your frankness in sharing such a sensitive topic.
I believe that a continued awareness of past failings combined with an ongoing commitment to build a future in which understanding and cooperation are dominant goals, will help steer the challenge of unity in the right direction.
Being realistic, and presuming that there is no slippage into the former ways, I see this flourishing in the generation which follows ours, where the pain of the atrocities committed will hopefully have been blunted.
However, we should aim to heal those pains even now and which requires those involved being genuinely regretful for their acts of savagery while determined to discover non-aggressive means through which to resolve ongoing differences.
* *
On a separate note, I am relieved to see that you have been spared the nugatory comments of Fg Off Bloggs who some weeks ago felt that any thread not related to either 'military aircrew' or 'aviation' be relegated to Jet Blast!
Let us continue to pray that NI will know lasting peace and stability.
I believe that a continued awareness of past failings combined with an ongoing commitment to build a future in which understanding and cooperation are dominant goals, will help steer the challenge of unity in the right direction.
Being realistic, and presuming that there is no slippage into the former ways, I see this flourishing in the generation which follows ours, where the pain of the atrocities committed will hopefully have been blunted.
However, we should aim to heal those pains even now and which requires those involved being genuinely regretful for their acts of savagery while determined to discover non-aggressive means through which to resolve ongoing differences.
* *
On a separate note, I am relieved to see that you have been spared the nugatory comments of Fg Off Bloggs who some weeks ago felt that any thread not related to either 'military aircrew' or 'aviation' be relegated to Jet Blast!
Let us continue to pray that NI will know lasting peace and stability.
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A good thread, many views, some predictable, some a little more...educated??
I find myself thinking of the words of an inspirational man. I don't know the exact quote, but it goes something like this....
Question...do you still feel anger towards your jailors?
None whatsoever
Why is that?
because to feel anger, is to surrender control to them
The interviewee was Nelson Mandela
Peace and conciliation means exactly that.
I find myself thinking of the words of an inspirational man. I don't know the exact quote, but it goes something like this....
Question...do you still feel anger towards your jailors?
None whatsoever
Why is that?
because to feel anger, is to surrender control to them
The interviewee was Nelson Mandela
Peace and conciliation means exactly that.
Well, as a Clydeside Prod who was born and raised amidst imported Irish politics I would not welcome Adams or McGuinness. HMTQ was welcomed to The Republic of Ireland but those two are hardly heads of state. I think I can safely say that I'm not mad about Paisley either.*
Does McG think he's going to get some sort of absolution out of it?
Good post by Bastardeux.
*Once, about 1958, took a Catholic friend to an Orange Walk (he insisted - I said "They say terrible things about The Pope!" He still insisted.) Heard this guy going on about the imminent invasion of our lands by Papist hordes (placed hands over friend's ears). Years later heard the same voice - must have been a young IP.
Does McG think he's going to get some sort of absolution out of it?
Good post by Bastardeux.
*Once, about 1958, took a Catholic friend to an Orange Walk (he insisted - I said "They say terrible things about The Pope!" He still insisted.) Heard this guy going on about the imminent invasion of our lands by Papist hordes (placed hands over friend's ears). Years later heard the same voice - must have been a young IP.
I think we should follow Her Majesty's example. She lost her dearest Cousin but still managed to lift herself above it all and move forward with the other side.
BBC News - Queen and Martin McGuinness shake hands
Surely the ultimate example of what we should do?
LJ
BBC News - Queen and Martin McGuinness shake hands
Surely the ultimate example of what we should do?
LJ
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 18th Sep 2013 at 22:05.
Good point and well made, LJ. There is one other thing. For me, forgiveness only comes when the wrong-doer shows remorse for what they did. It doesn't come for me when they try to ignore what they have done and carry on regardless.
Do you know who invited McGuiness to talk at the Peace Centre?
The answer might surprise you and demonstrates that some people have recognised we need to move forwards and talking is a far better alternative to fighting. Im sure Colin Parry has no forgiveness for McGuiness or any of his fellow IRA members but I salute his continued pursuit of finding peace and reconciliation
The answer might surprise you and demonstrates that some people have recognised we need to move forwards and talking is a far better alternative to fighting. Im sure Colin Parry has no forgiveness for McGuiness or any of his fellow IRA members but I salute his continued pursuit of finding peace and reconciliation
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The original thread was can we forgive or forget? I am afraid I can do neither. I grew up in Northern Ireland until I joined the RAF in '89 and there were atrocities on both sides. Their activities were called terrorism for a reason - they were designed to terrorise the civilian population into giving in to a bigoted narrow-minded view of what the perp felt was correct or justified.
I am however willing to accept what went on. I am willing to accept that these brutes will not be prosecuted. I am willing to accept that these w**kers will appear on the TV smiling and hand-shaking. I would happily see the terrorists from both sides hung from the nearest lamppost, but that would not help.
This acceptance is the price that peace-craving people must pay to move forward. Forgive and forget? No. Accept and try to move forward? Yes.
I am however willing to accept what went on. I am willing to accept that these brutes will not be prosecuted. I am willing to accept that these w**kers will appear on the TV smiling and hand-shaking. I would happily see the terrorists from both sides hung from the nearest lamppost, but that would not help.
This acceptance is the price that peace-craving people must pay to move forward. Forgive and forget? No. Accept and try to move forward? Yes.
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There was an organised protest. Peaceful of course. They quoted "asking him to lecture on peace is like asking Myra hindley to lecture on child protection".
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I will never forgive or forget that for most of my service I was, along with my wife and two children, considered a "legitimate target" by those who sought to force their will upon the majority by the bomb and by the bullet. I can never forgive those cowardly b'stards who skulked around putting bombs under cars and in waste bins, blowing up people who couldn't alter things even if they wanted to. In my (probably tarnished) opinion the Gibraltar victory should have happened time after time after time.
However, and that's a big however, we must move on and if the only way to ensure that we don't return to those days is to pretend that McGuinness and Adams et al are honorable politicians (now there's an oxymoron if ever there was one), then so be it, after all we did so with the Israeli terrorists.
DN
However, and that's a big however, we must move on and if the only way to ensure that we don't return to those days is to pretend that McGuinness and Adams et al are honorable politicians (now there's an oxymoron if ever there was one), then so be it, after all we did so with the Israeli terrorists.
DN
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Posted by cokecan.
This has to be the greatest load of ira propaganda ever posted. Martin and Gerry would be proud of you. As someone born and raised in Belfast and who served in N.I. between 1968 and 1971 I think I can comment on your post.
1. How many of those "warnings" were deliberately inaccurate as to the bomb location causing innocent "carefree shoppers" to be evacuated to where the bomb actually was sited?
2. Ask your friend Gerry about his time as commander of the "unknowns" who kidnapped, tortured and murdered alleged traitors including the disgusting treatment of the mother of a large family whose body has still not been recovered because the heroes who did it won't say where they dumped her.
You have the gall to imply that the ira tried to avoid casualties in their attacks. Ask the families of those killed and maimed in pubs, clubs and restaurants.
Forgive? Never. Forget? Never.
the trick was to give warnings that would be resonably effective, but not so generous so that there was no panic in the effort to clear the area. sometimes they got that right, sometimes they did not. it is however fundamental to understanding PIRA bombing campaigns to grsp that PIRA was targetting a concept
- the carefree saturday afternoon at the shops - far more than it targetted
individuals.
anyone who disputes that mass casualties were not PIRA's
intention in every attack they made ought to ask themselves why PIRA gave warnings in the first place.
- the carefree saturday afternoon at the shops - far more than it targetted
individuals.
anyone who disputes that mass casualties were not PIRA's
intention in every attack they made ought to ask themselves why PIRA gave warnings in the first place.
1. How many of those "warnings" were deliberately inaccurate as to the bomb location causing innocent "carefree shoppers" to be evacuated to where the bomb actually was sited?
2. Ask your friend Gerry about his time as commander of the "unknowns" who kidnapped, tortured and murdered alleged traitors including the disgusting treatment of the mother of a large family whose body has still not been recovered because the heroes who did it won't say where they dumped her.
You have the gall to imply that the ira tried to avoid casualties in their attacks. Ask the families of those killed and maimed in pubs, clubs and restaurants.
Forgive? Never. Forget? Never.
Should a family who have had most of the members of their family killed while attending a wedding in Afghanistan forgive ?
Should a family who were killed by weapons sold by UK to a despot in Africa or wherever forgive ?
Should Bloody Sunday victims in Northern Ireland forgive ?
What about if your family died in a bombing because M15 / Police knew something was going to occur but decided not to intervene because it gave them a better position in an organisation ?
Is a pilot who launches a missile 60 miles away from a target a hero or a terrorist if the missile destroys a terrorist camp but what about if it destroys a school where a wedding was taking place ?
People make up their own mind but the moralising of what is correct or incorrect will depend on where you sit.....................there isn't a right or wrong answer but you don't make peace with your friends you make it with your enemies.
Should a family who were killed by weapons sold by UK to a despot in Africa or wherever forgive ?
Should Bloody Sunday victims in Northern Ireland forgive ?
What about if your family died in a bombing because M15 / Police knew something was going to occur but decided not to intervene because it gave them a better position in an organisation ?
Is a pilot who launches a missile 60 miles away from a target a hero or a terrorist if the missile destroys a terrorist camp but what about if it destroys a school where a wedding was taking place ?
People make up their own mind but the moralising of what is correct or incorrect will depend on where you sit.....................there isn't a right or wrong answer but you don't make peace with your friends you make it with your enemies.
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No. We can neither forgive nor forget. Because to quote Gerry Adam's after the Enniskillen bomb he said about the IRA... "They haven't gone away, you know..."
Neither forgive nor forget not trust nor appease. Just kill the bastards.
Neither forgive nor forget not trust nor appease. Just kill the bastards.
Isn't it always the same ? After the conflict you always have to co-exist with the main offenders. Palestine and the subsequent Jewish leadership, Kenya and the Mau Mau in the form of Jomo Kenyatta, and as for Mandella, probably one of the most brutal terrorists that ever walked on the planet. I am aware that the S.A. regime was dreadful and he had a lot to rebel against.
I think that people struggle more with Adams and McG. because it was closer to home but it has always happened.
Not saying that it is right though.
I think that people struggle more with Adams and McG. because it was closer to home but it has always happened.
Not saying that it is right though.
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Racedo,
You and I are on the same page. Lots of outrage here.
Not much navel gazing.
Ralph
You and I are on the same page. Lots of outrage here.
Not much navel gazing.
Ralph
there isn't a right or wrong answer but you don't make peace with your friends you make it with your enemies.
You have to make Peace with yourself....first....then perhaps you can move on to others.
One of the Oriental religions.....Shintoists I believe....have a saying...."To love others, one must first love oneself!".
I think there is some wisdom there.