Four Medals of Honor.....Two Sad Days!
Thread Starter
Four Medals of Honor.....Two Sad Days!
Recent news a US Army Captain shall be awarded a Medal of Honor for combat action in Afghanistan. That is two Actions that resulted in the award of Two MOH's each.
All are for extraordinary conduct under fire by Soldiers in combat actions that were the direct result of shameful decisions by more senior commanders that directly led to the wounding and deaths of the Soldiers and Marines who did the fighting.
I refer to FOB Keating which had been located in an unsound tactical position and to the ambush of forces near Ganjal where senior commanders denied the use of supporting fires and did not send help to the unit in contact.
It right and fitting we honor such courage but why do we not punish those who are the cause for such Men to pay such a heavy price in blood?
Former Army Capt. Will Swenson to receive Medal of Honor for heroics in Afghanistan | Army Times | armytimes.com
All are for extraordinary conduct under fire by Soldiers in combat actions that were the direct result of shameful decisions by more senior commanders that directly led to the wounding and deaths of the Soldiers and Marines who did the fighting.
I refer to FOB Keating which had been located in an unsound tactical position and to the ambush of forces near Ganjal where senior commanders denied the use of supporting fires and did not send help to the unit in contact.
It right and fitting we honor such courage but why do we not punish those who are the cause for such Men to pay such a heavy price in blood?
Former Army Capt. Will Swenson to receive Medal of Honor for heroics in Afghanistan | Army Times | armytimes.com
This has prompted me to look up some statistics on the Medal of Honor. I see that since its creation, fewer than 3,500 have been awarded, over 1,500 of which were in the Civil War. The source I checked stated that only two had to date been awarded for Afghanistan, presumably that figure predates the above incident.
There is no doubt that the Medal of Honor deserves its reputation as being at the very pinnacle of military awards, sharing that position with the Victoria Cross. Certainly the Victoria Cross has been awarded fewer times since 1856 (1357 awards) but given the greater size of the US military, this is perhaps not surprising.
My congratulations to Captain Swenson and Sergeant Meyer - and a salute to both!
There is no doubt that the Medal of Honor deserves its reputation as being at the very pinnacle of military awards, sharing that position with the Victoria Cross. Certainly the Victoria Cross has been awarded fewer times since 1856 (1357 awards) but given the greater size of the US military, this is perhaps not surprising.
My congratulations to Captain Swenson and Sergeant Meyer - and a salute to both!
Thread Starter
I think this list is complete less the latest award I referenced in my original post.
Medal of Honor Recipients - Afghanistan
My Grand Father, as a Private in the US Army during the Philippine Insurrection (1898) was nominated for the MOH and wound up receiving the DSC. Had he been an Officer he would have gotten the Medal. One of my Cousin's Sons is doing his second combat tour in Afghanistan with the Army SF.
I told him not to try to live up to his Great Grandfather's example.....and just do the job and come home safe.
We are so fortunate to have people with such courage serving in our military.....including the UK Forces as well. Those that earn the Victoria Cross also deserve our admiration and respect.
Medal of Honor Recipients - Afghanistan
My Grand Father, as a Private in the US Army during the Philippine Insurrection (1898) was nominated for the MOH and wound up receiving the DSC. Had he been an Officer he would have gotten the Medal. One of my Cousin's Sons is doing his second combat tour in Afghanistan with the Army SF.
I told him not to try to live up to his Great Grandfather's example.....and just do the job and come home safe.
We are so fortunate to have people with such courage serving in our military.....including the UK Forces as well. Those that earn the Victoria Cross also deserve our admiration and respect.
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I am always in awe of the fortitude and valour shown by MoH recipients and many of their actions defy credibility.
It is also sad that this lead story should be printed at the same time as the second lead Bragg soldier arrested for making porn with dogs | Army Times | armytimes.com
It is also sad that this lead story should be printed at the same time as the second lead Bragg soldier arrested for making porn with dogs | Army Times | armytimes.com
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SaSless
Jesus, they unload in that Army times areticle on the front page re the Officers.
1. Letter of reprimand !
2. Officer back at HQ, "Didn't think the ambush was as bad as it was" !
3. Denied indirect fire support !
I see Meyer unloaded on them as well !
Anyway, good to see all the families will be attending.
Jesus, they unload in that Army times areticle on the front page re the Officers.
1. Letter of reprimand !
2. Officer back at HQ, "Didn't think the ambush was as bad as it was" !
3. Denied indirect fire support !
I see Meyer unloaded on them as well !
Anyway, good to see all the families will be attending.
Last edited by 500N; 17th Sep 2013 at 17:35.
I had a sobering conversation with an A-10 squadron skipper a few days after a dust up in the hills of Afghanistan, back in another lifetime.
Neither he nor I were near the location of combat at the time, we were back somewhere else in the rear, as they say.
The call for fire support came, the A-10's were overhead not long after the firefight had commenced. The RoE for air to ground engagements were so tight the FAC (JTAC) was unable to call in the air delivered munitions for concern of possible casualties that weren't the unfriendlies. Firefight eventually ended. CAS eventually RTB.
The pilots came back to the squadron disturbed and upset (he was there at their mission debrief). I got to talk to them over a secure net. All I could do was acknowledge their being there, and was not able to answer why weapons tight remained the call beyond "JTAC could not meet the RoE." I suspect the JTAC and his unit were hot enough to burn metal with their hands, before it was all over, given how the RoE had been set up.
The CO came to find me when he was at our location. By the time we were done discussing it all, we were in the mood to set fire to a few politicians and JAG sorts.
Four Coalition casualties from that firefight, RIP, even with CAS available but not usable thanks to an RoE that was so tight it squeaked.
It's enough to drive you to drink.
Neither he nor I were near the location of combat at the time, we were back somewhere else in the rear, as they say.
The call for fire support came, the A-10's were overhead not long after the firefight had commenced. The RoE for air to ground engagements were so tight the FAC (JTAC) was unable to call in the air delivered munitions for concern of possible casualties that weren't the unfriendlies. Firefight eventually ended. CAS eventually RTB.
The pilots came back to the squadron disturbed and upset (he was there at their mission debrief). I got to talk to them over a secure net. All I could do was acknowledge their being there, and was not able to answer why weapons tight remained the call beyond "JTAC could not meet the RoE." I suspect the JTAC and his unit were hot enough to burn metal with their hands, before it was all over, given how the RoE had been set up.
The CO came to find me when he was at our location. By the time we were done discussing it all, we were in the mood to set fire to a few politicians and JAG sorts.
Four Coalition casualties from that firefight, RIP, even with CAS available but not usable thanks to an RoE that was so tight it squeaked.
It's enough to drive you to drink.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 17th Sep 2013 at 19:17.
Thread Starter
When brave men are dying.....screw the ROE's and take your lumps. The Military does not want the negative publicity a Court Martial would bring....remembering any NJP can be appealed to a Court Martial by the individual being administered the punishment.
Be careful how you apply your firepower.....but get the support to the Troops they need and deserve.
If we are going to commit the Troops to the fight....we owe it to them to provide them every asset possible to ensure their safety and tactical supremacy over the enemy.
I have been calling for bringing all the Lads and Lasses home.....declare Victory and depart immediately.
Be careful how you apply your firepower.....but get the support to the Troops they need and deserve.
If we are going to commit the Troops to the fight....we owe it to them to provide them every asset possible to ensure their safety and tactical supremacy over the enemy.
I have been calling for bringing all the Lads and Lasses home.....declare Victory and depart immediately.
Last edited by SASless; 17th Sep 2013 at 20:06.
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I had a sobering conversation with an A-10 squadron skipper a few days after a dust up in the hills of Afghanistan, back in another lifetime.
Neither he nor I were near the location of combat at the time, we were back somewhere else in the rear, as they say.
The call for fire support came, the A-10's were overhead not long after the firefight had commenced. The RoE for air to ground engagements were so tight the FAC (JTAC) was unable to call in the air delivered munitions for concern of possible casualties that weren't the unfriendlies. Firefight eventually ended. CAS eventually RTB.
The pilots came back to the squadron disturbed and upset (he was there at their mission debrief). I got to talk to them over a secure net. All I could do was acknowledge their being there, and was not able to answer why weapons tight remained the call beyond "JTAC could not meet the RoE." I suspect the JTAC and his unit were hot enough to burn metal with their hands, before it was all over, given how the RoE had been set up.
The CO came to find me when he was at our location. By the time we were done discussing it all, we were in the mood to set fire to a few politicians and JAG sorts.
Four Coalition casualties from that firefight, RIP, even with CAS available but not usable thanks to an RoE that was so tight it squeaked.
Neither he nor I were near the location of combat at the time, we were back somewhere else in the rear, as they say.
The call for fire support came, the A-10's were overhead not long after the firefight had commenced. The RoE for air to ground engagements were so tight the FAC (JTAC) was unable to call in the air delivered munitions for concern of possible casualties that weren't the unfriendlies. Firefight eventually ended. CAS eventually RTB.
The pilots came back to the squadron disturbed and upset (he was there at their mission debrief). I got to talk to them over a secure net. All I could do was acknowledge their being there, and was not able to answer why weapons tight remained the call beyond "JTAC could not meet the RoE." I suspect the JTAC and his unit were hot enough to burn metal with their hands, before it was all over, given how the RoE had been set up.
The CO came to find me when he was at our location. By the time we were done discussing it all, we were in the mood to set fire to a few politicians and JAG sorts.
Four Coalition casualties from that firefight, RIP, even with CAS available but not usable thanks to an RoE that was so tight it squeaked.
I know this will make me as popular as a fart in a space suit, but the ROE exists for a reason, and it is generally a sound reason.
Whilst we will never know how it may've turned out with CAS, we (the Coalition) killed the fewest possible non-combatants that day by not using CAS.
We serve with an unlimited liability, and sometimes that means we have people killed. The Mission is generally more important than an individual.
Whilst we will never know how it may've turned out with CAS, we (the Coalition) killed the fewest possible non-combatants that day by not using CAS.
We serve with an unlimited liability, and sometimes that means we have people killed. The Mission is generally more important than an individual.
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Alfred
I know we don't have the intricate details of the battle but
- on the ground, you had a US Army Capt, a Marine Lt,
a US Army Staff Sgt, and probably a few other senior NCO's.
We aren't talking a Cpl with a Section who hadn't seen battle before
so why are people in the rear second guessing an experienced ground
commander ?
- As it says in the article, they had already fired a few rounds of Arty
in support but it stopped. Capt Swenson couldn't understand why.
- Isn't that why you have people - Officers, NCO's trained
in requesting fire support or acting as FAC's ?
- Why train them if you don't then believe what they are
saying over the radio ? They know what the ROE's are,
they know the danger limits etc.
And I am still amazed that all they got was a Letter of reprimand
unless of course that is enough to kill off any career in the military.
Add the above action to the other action at the outpost,
two major CF's in one month at a large cost in lives.
I know we don't have the intricate details of the battle but
- on the ground, you had a US Army Capt, a Marine Lt,
a US Army Staff Sgt, and probably a few other senior NCO's.
We aren't talking a Cpl with a Section who hadn't seen battle before
so why are people in the rear second guessing an experienced ground
commander ?
- As it says in the article, they had already fired a few rounds of Arty
in support but it stopped. Capt Swenson couldn't understand why.
- Isn't that why you have people - Officers, NCO's trained
in requesting fire support or acting as FAC's ?
- Why train them if you don't then believe what they are
saying over the radio ? They know what the ROE's are,
they know the danger limits etc.
And I am still amazed that all they got was a Letter of reprimand
unless of course that is enough to kill off any career in the military.
Add the above action to the other action at the outpost,
two major CF's in one month at a large cost in lives.
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Agreed I'd read the Bragg article too but thought it was not the place and time to mention it.
Alfred I can see what you are saying re Rules of Engagement but at the end of the day the call has to go to the man on the ground, as he says
Therefore as the man on the ground assessing the situation and taking responsibility for his decision, one would have thought that should never be overidden.
You then have to weigh up the decision to award the letters of reprimand, if as said they had followed the rules of engagement to the letter, why was a letter that could destroy their careers issued?
We do not know the full story and never will, but it does sound like a bit of being put up as scapegoats for following the rules imposed on them, because lives were lost they got the blame foisted upon them. Far worse than some bit of paper, they will have to live with that decision for the rest of their lives.
Alfred I can see what you are saying re Rules of Engagement but at the end of the day the call has to go to the man on the ground, as he says
“When I’m being second-guessed by higher or somebody that’s sitting in an air-conditioned TOC, why [the] hell am I even out there in the first place?” Swenson told investigators, according to redacted documents reviewed by Military Times. “Let’s sit back and play Nintendo. I am the ground commander. I want that f---er, and I am willing to accept the consequences of that f---er.”
You then have to weigh up the decision to award the letters of reprimand, if as said they had followed the rules of engagement to the letter, why was a letter that could destroy their careers issued?
We do not know the full story and never will, but it does sound like a bit of being put up as scapegoats for following the rules imposed on them, because lives were lost they got the blame foisted upon them. Far worse than some bit of paper, they will have to live with that decision for the rest of their lives.
Last edited by NutLoose; 17th Sep 2013 at 22:15.
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Or, it sounds like the ROE DID allow for the fire support/CAS to be employed and they decided not to allow it because they either didn't believe the men on the ground or didn't understand the ROE they were supposed to be following.
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Green
They didn't believe the men / man on the ground as clearly stated.
What gets me is an average situation - ambush, contact, counter ambush drill
can turn to absolute shyte or can turn in your favour just by a few rounds
of fire support of whatever kind - arty, mortars, SFMG or anything from
the air, just enough to allow you to get on the front foot where you start
to dictate the terms.
So the people back at base allowed a bad situation to turn to shyte
very quickly.
They didn't believe the men / man on the ground as clearly stated.
What gets me is an average situation - ambush, contact, counter ambush drill
can turn to absolute shyte or can turn in your favour just by a few rounds
of fire support of whatever kind - arty, mortars, SFMG or anything from
the air, just enough to allow you to get on the front foot where you start
to dictate the terms.
So the people back at base allowed a bad situation to turn to shyte
very quickly.
Same situation for the Brits in Aden. Ambushed by Flosy or NLF they had to seek permission from Whitehall before putting a 105mm or anything larger than .303 into the buildings from which the ambush came. Given the state of 1960s comms and the ROE, invariably it was not forthcoming. Thus are "limited" wars. It's best to avoid them just as much as other people's civil wars.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 18th Sep 2013 at 10:52.
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I was watching a contact of Aussie troops in Afghan, the one where
one of the soldiers lost his life and one won a VC plus others other medals.
They all said the same thing, needed support earlier and pref from the air
as in AH.
It is unlikely to have saved the soldier as he was hit early on but the
rest of the fight that went on for ages ..............
one of the soldiers lost his life and one won a VC plus others other medals.
They all said the same thing, needed support earlier and pref from the air
as in AH.
It is unlikely to have saved the soldier as he was hit early on but the
rest of the fight that went on for ages ..............
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It certainly does not make pleasant reading and much respect must go to the guys on the ground who sadly paid the ultimate price.
A few folks have quite correctly pointed out how we are not in possession of all the facts and I will add myself to that list.
I note these brave soldiers were 'instructors' trainers or advisers.. You pays your money and takes your pick over the terminology but this type of role has been going on for many, many years and usually we the general public have no idea of where we have 'boots on the ground'
Could it be that those we are being so critical of were simply not in the loop? They had absolutely no idea that there were US forces on the ground, they had no idea these US forces were genuine? I am playing devils advocate and it is easy to say that when we have folks screaming for instant air support, we should go in with all guns blazing but that decision is only easy when we are sat in our nice, comfortable armchairs, several thousands of miles away from that awful situation.
This is definitely not the first time that 'advisers' have come under enemy fire and have paid the ultimate price but in times gone by they would have simply died on a 'training exercise' No medals, no acknowledgement of their brave deeds, just a short sentence saying how they died whilst on a training exercise and the next of kin have been informed! at least these brave souls have been recognised and rewarded for their valour.
Those that refused to send that requested support have to live with that decision and if they are decent human beings, that is not going to be an easy cross to bear.
I salute those brave soldiers
John
A few folks have quite correctly pointed out how we are not in possession of all the facts and I will add myself to that list.
I note these brave soldiers were 'instructors' trainers or advisers.. You pays your money and takes your pick over the terminology but this type of role has been going on for many, many years and usually we the general public have no idea of where we have 'boots on the ground'
Could it be that those we are being so critical of were simply not in the loop? They had absolutely no idea that there were US forces on the ground, they had no idea these US forces were genuine? I am playing devils advocate and it is easy to say that when we have folks screaming for instant air support, we should go in with all guns blazing but that decision is only easy when we are sat in our nice, comfortable armchairs, several thousands of miles away from that awful situation.
This is definitely not the first time that 'advisers' have come under enemy fire and have paid the ultimate price but in times gone by they would have simply died on a 'training exercise' No medals, no acknowledgement of their brave deeds, just a short sentence saying how they died whilst on a training exercise and the next of kin have been informed! at least these brave souls have been recognised and rewarded for their valour.
Those that refused to send that requested support have to live with that decision and if they are decent human beings, that is not going to be an easy cross to bear.
I salute those brave soldiers
John