Puddle Jumpers in the Machynlleth Loop
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There are many places on the M5 where a truck jumping the central reservation and hitting you head on would not be good either.....but people drive on it every day without giving it a single thought....sometimes in life you are lucky and sometimes not....lets not eradicate the concept of joy entirely please...
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I wish I'd said Harrier now...but I chose my words carefully nonetheless - it wouldn't be ideal would it?
Still - back to those PFL dits.
I did a couple of PFLs once - they were amazing. If I try really hard to remember them all - maybe one or two started off in that area in Hawks...they were easily the best.
The point is that one could point at all sorts of situations where an engine failure wouldn't be ideal but we still get into them don't we? A starter list from my own experience would be 1) LL Tucano over moon country 2) Any Harrier evolution involving a ship 3) Any Harrier evolution not involving a ship but with gear down 4) Solo wet winching in a single engine Squirrel...you get the idea... all the situations we say glib things like 'we'll be poorly placed if this happens'.
You don't 'not go' because you might be poorly placed for periods of time - you go having acknowledged the risk.
Still - back to those PFL dits.
I did a couple of PFLs once - they were amazing. If I try really hard to remember them all - maybe one or two started off in that area in Hawks...they were easily the best.
The point is that one could point at all sorts of situations where an engine failure wouldn't be ideal but we still get into them don't we? A starter list from my own experience would be 1) LL Tucano over moon country 2) Any Harrier evolution involving a ship 3) Any Harrier evolution not involving a ship but with gear down 4) Solo wet winching in a single engine Squirrel...you get the idea... all the situations we say glib things like 'we'll be poorly placed if this happens'.
You don't 'not go' because you might be poorly placed for periods of time - you go having acknowledged the risk.
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You don't 'not go' because you might be poorly placed for periods of time - you go having acknowledged the risk.
I don't wear a nomex flying suit or crash helmet when flying, to some that would be an unacceptable risk.
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Mad Jock, you are probably right that the Mil AIP should be more accessible but a lot of the relevant bits including mil low flying information are available through the CAA. Getting GA pilots to read this http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga_srg_...18November.pdf for example and to use the Civil Air Notification Procedure would help everyone. There is current low flying information on the HMG website as well https://www.gov.uk/low-flying-in-your-area so a bit of planning should go a long way.
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Wasn't taken as such...
. Even at my own club there are widely differing opinions as to what constitutes acceptable risk, at the end of the day you are commander of the a/c and you fly it as you see fit.
I'm not completely averse to low flying; a run down the Lincs east coast at 500' from persons, vessels and structures your honour is perfectly acceptable because there's a wide sandy beach virtually the whole way to plonk it on. That's acceptable risk to me. I wouldn't do the same at Beachy Head.
. Even at my own club there are widely differing opinions as to what constitutes acceptable risk, at the end of the day you are commander of the a/c and you fly it as you see fit. I'm not completely averse to low flying; a run down the Lincs east coast at 500' from persons, vessels and structures your honour is perfectly acceptable because there's a wide sandy beach virtually the whole way to plonk it on. That's acceptable risk to me. I wouldn't do the same at Beachy Head.
Please put forward to all your safety types that restricting the MIL AIP to those that are willing to pay for it is a really w@nk idea.
Why? It's either 'classified' or 'unclassified'. Or is 'unclassified if you have the money' some 'wider markets'
idea?
Join Date: Feb 2008
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The UKMLFHB is still available to civilian "customers" ... but at £178.57 
See pages 9 & 10 ...
MilFlip AIDU Products
Why not make available critical flight safety docs such as this via the MAA web site or NATS ... it's in the interests of both the mil and civilian aviation communities for everyone to be on the same page (literally) ...
Coff.
See pages 9 & 10 ...
MilFlip AIDU Products
Why not make available critical flight safety docs such as this via the MAA web site or NATS ... it's in the interests of both the mil and civilian aviation communities for everyone to be on the same page (literally) ...
Coff.
Last edited by CoffmanStarter; 11th Sep 2013 at 09:50.
Ref the AIP, the safety types have been saying this for a little while now, partly because we complain about GA flying through our IF holds but don't tell the GA where they are. There is supposed to me a move towards a single AIP (mil and civ) but I don't know how far along we are with it..
Last edited by whowhenwhy; 11th Sep 2013 at 17:50.
The problem with the UKLFH (UK Low Flying Handbook) is that it covers HIRTAs (High Intensity Radio Transmission Areas) and that makes it classified. However, there is light on the horizon for stuff in the UK MIL AIP - the MAA have insisted that aerodromes will have to publish a Defence Aerodrome Manual (DAM).
www.maa.mod.uk/linkedfiles/regulation/dam.pdf
Watch this space for them on websites soon.
LJ
www.maa.mod.uk/linkedfiles/regulation/dam.pdf
Watch this space for them on websites soon.
LJ
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 11th Sep 2013 at 19:01.
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Leon ... interesting ... so GA Pilots are free to have their gonads fried in the name of national security
Wire me £179 notes old chap and I'll see if I can obtain a copy of the UKMLFHB from AIDU... it's OK I'm still bound by the OSA
Wire me £179 notes old chap and I'll see if I can obtain a copy of the UKMLFHB from AIDU... it's OK I'm still bound by the OSA
Last edited by CoffmanStarter; 11th Sep 2013 at 19:15.
Humble GA pilot here,
I've managed to avoid frying my gonads so far. HIRTAs such as Pershore & Croughton are clearly marked on current CAA charts as well as TV transmitter sites. I once went up into the golf balls at Fylingdales, but still managed to fill a couple of prams afterwards
Whilst the Valley AIAA is marked, I think it would be good to mark busier low level corridors such as the Mach' Loop with a directional arrow on the CAA charts. Whilst I take these military activities into account when planning epic flights, other civvy pilots who don't have any interest in military aviation may be blissfully unaware.
I had sight of a (50k) military chart, complete with pylons etc for low level and noticed some arrows around Cranwell. Presumably they were indicators of military patterns in an area of obviously intensive activity. (When propellors are having a good day and the fleet is active). As with Valley, it would be useful to show those arrows on CAA charts too.
As for flying below 2000ft, many of us with lower powered machines often fly at such levels. I get a nosebleed above 1500ft.
Rest assured, I will let you chaps know when I'm going to blat around the loop in my eye wateringly fast 50hp hotship.
I've managed to avoid frying my gonads so far. HIRTAs such as Pershore & Croughton are clearly marked on current CAA charts as well as TV transmitter sites. I once went up into the golf balls at Fylingdales, but still managed to fill a couple of prams afterwards
Whilst the Valley AIAA is marked, I think it would be good to mark busier low level corridors such as the Mach' Loop with a directional arrow on the CAA charts. Whilst I take these military activities into account when planning epic flights, other civvy pilots who don't have any interest in military aviation may be blissfully unaware.
I had sight of a (50k) military chart, complete with pylons etc for low level and noticed some arrows around Cranwell. Presumably they were indicators of military patterns in an area of obviously intensive activity. (When propellors are having a good day and the fleet is active). As with Valley, it would be useful to show those arrows on CAA charts too.
As for flying below 2000ft, many of us with lower powered machines often fly at such levels. I get a nosebleed above 1500ft.
Rest assured, I will let you chaps know when I'm going to blat around the loop in my eye wateringly fast 50hp hotship.
I asked the CAA Chart Editor at DAP (now looked after by NATS) to put military flow arrows on the CAA VFR charts. He said "it would make the chart too cluttered". I said "better a cluttered chart, than a cluttered countryside with aircraft parts following a mid air"; he didn't look amused at my serious if flippant comment!
As for HIRTAs, yes they are on civil charts, but the UK Low Fly Handbook details the susceptability of each military type to specific emissions - something you don't want to fall into enemy hands!
Out of interest, the HIRTAs on CAA/NATS charts are complete hoop - for instance the HIRTA around RAF Croughton is not the right size for your average Cessna 152. For that aircraft it is a lot smaller - it is for a full fly-by-wire aircraft or one with digital engine control. Think about it, if the intensity was as bad as depicted on the chart it would be frying the traffic daily on the A43 dual carriageway!! (even from the sidelobes!)
LJ
As for HIRTAs, yes they are on civil charts, but the UK Low Fly Handbook details the susceptability of each military type to specific emissions - something you don't want to fall into enemy hands!
Out of interest, the HIRTAs on CAA/NATS charts are complete hoop - for instance the HIRTA around RAF Croughton is not the right size for your average Cessna 152. For that aircraft it is a lot smaller - it is for a full fly-by-wire aircraft or one with digital engine control. Think about it, if the intensity was as bad as depicted on the chart it would be frying the traffic daily on the A43 dual carriageway!! (even from the sidelobes!)
LJ
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 11th Sep 2013 at 22:20.
PS. For those that don't know RAF Croughton is marked on the CAA Chart between Hinton in the Hedges and Weston on the Green on the right hand side of the chart below with a red hatched circle. Note how the A43 is obliterated by it!
And it's not a million miles away from Courtney Mil Towers!
Furthermore, look at Defford on the left side of the map and you'll see a farm strip called 'Croft Farm' in the middle of it. As I said, the HIRTAs on the VFR Charts are exceptionally misleading (ie. utter hoop!)
And it's not a million miles away from Courtney Mil Towers!
Furthermore, look at Defford on the left side of the map and you'll see a farm strip called 'Croft Farm' in the middle of it. As I said, the HIRTAs on the VFR Charts are exceptionally misleading (ie. utter hoop!)
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 11th Sep 2013 at 22:32.
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Leon ... Next time you have the occasion to wiz through LFA18 ... avoid the locals who inhabit Herstmonceux as they are now armed with Ground to Air Photon Torpedoes
Let's see how long it takes for the Daily Mail to mangle that little snippet
Let's see how long it takes for the Daily Mail to mangle that little snippet
Last edited by CoffmanStarter; 12th Sep 2013 at 09:49.