Why don't we buy a Mossie for the BBMF?
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F4TCT The RAFAT was going to move to Waddington (at some expense) but it was eventually decided that Waddington didn't have the space/logistics to accommodate the team and their aircraft (they were to have continued using Scampton's air space for flying). It's not as strange at it looks though, as there are other (non-flying) units based there and also HHA.
Like yourself I've flown in the team's displays quite a few times and there's no doubt that the team has way more impact from inside the cockpit than from the ground, but one has to take a realistic and wider view; to the typical man-in-the street, the Red Arrows are "gobsmacking" by any standards. It's just that as enthusiasts or locals, we tend to get used to them.
The problem with the BBMF issue is that so many people also fail to take a realistic view. It's fine to have a passion for WWII aircraft and for the need to remember the BofB. But this attitude doesn't reflect the interests of air show crowds (ie- the average spectator, not the enthusiast). Okay, older people might get a thrill from the BBMF but the younger folks (particularly those that the RAF is presumably aiming to impress) don't give a stuff. I know it's difficult for older people to accept that but it's true. A teenager couldn't care less about a Spitfire. So it's back to what I said earlier. If the BBMF can't "entertain" then its role is to commemorate. But the few occasions when such ceremonial duties are needed don't require an active RAF unit.
I fully understand the attitudes expressed by the pro-BBMF people but (as you can see in this thread) an awful lot of people don't really have any grasp of reality. The notion of adding another non-BoB aircraft to the unit is absurd, when the RAFAT struggles to survive... and probably will not for much longer... and despite the howls of protest that will surely follow, it's the RAFAT that matters. They are truly a national asset that does an awful lot both for industry and the RAF.
As for the CAA, that's another can of worms. Essentially, they impose their rules on the grounds of safety. All well and good, but as we all know, some rules aren't always entirely appropriate sometimes. Additionally, the CAA does sometimes use its rules to suit the agenda of some of its own members. Sadly, we're obliged to abide by their position
Like yourself I've flown in the team's displays quite a few times and there's no doubt that the team has way more impact from inside the cockpit than from the ground, but one has to take a realistic and wider view; to the typical man-in-the street, the Red Arrows are "gobsmacking" by any standards. It's just that as enthusiasts or locals, we tend to get used to them.
The problem with the BBMF issue is that so many people also fail to take a realistic view. It's fine to have a passion for WWII aircraft and for the need to remember the BofB. But this attitude doesn't reflect the interests of air show crowds (ie- the average spectator, not the enthusiast). Okay, older people might get a thrill from the BBMF but the younger folks (particularly those that the RAF is presumably aiming to impress) don't give a stuff. I know it's difficult for older people to accept that but it's true. A teenager couldn't care less about a Spitfire. So it's back to what I said earlier. If the BBMF can't "entertain" then its role is to commemorate. But the few occasions when such ceremonial duties are needed don't require an active RAF unit.
I fully understand the attitudes expressed by the pro-BBMF people but (as you can see in this thread) an awful lot of people don't really have any grasp of reality. The notion of adding another non-BoB aircraft to the unit is absurd, when the RAFAT struggles to survive... and probably will not for much longer... and despite the howls of protest that will surely follow, it's the RAFAT that matters. They are truly a national asset that does an awful lot both for industry and the RAF.
As for the CAA, that's another can of worms. Essentially, they impose their rules on the grounds of safety. All well and good, but as we all know, some rules aren't always entirely appropriate sometimes. Additionally, the CAA does sometimes use its rules to suit the agenda of some of its own members. Sadly, we're obliged to abide by their position
Last edited by WH904; 5th Sep 2013 at 17:47.
There you go again WH904!! And this time you insult us with ageism!
"Okay, older people might get a thrill from the BBMF but the younger folks (particularly those that the RAF is presumably aiming to impress) don't give a stuff."
So you really think the younger generation hang around at airshows just to see the Reds?
"Okay, older people might get a thrill from the BBMF but the younger folks (particularly those that the RAF is presumably aiming to impress) don't give a stuff."
So you really think the younger generation hang around at airshows just to see the Reds?
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I know they do. Surely, you don't seriously imagine that virtually anyone under the age of about twenty has any interest in any aeroplanes other than the fast or noisy ones? As for being insulted at ageism, that would be difficult seen as I'm 51 myself 
you don't seriously imagine that virtually anyone under the age of about twenty has any interest in any aeroplanes other than the fast or noisy ones?
Incidentally, for those who think fast and noisy is the be-all and end-all of air displays, I suggest you get yourselves along to see the Chinook display next year. Speaking as a FJ pilot I have to say that it is by far the most impressive and attention-grabbing display I have ever seen, certainly more so than the Vulcan. Whilst "noisy" it's not the kind of noise that appeals to jet fans - for that, the B-1B is king. The YouTube clip on the Chinook site gives an idea of the extreme manoeuvering, but you'll just have to trust me that the full visual impact of the display transcends anything the Reds have to offer!
* (whilst complying with ASOs!)
Last edited by Easy Street; 5th Sep 2013 at 19:20.
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I accept that point, I figured somebody would say something like that. Obviously there are always exceptions to the rule. Some younger guys appreciate BBMF and lots more too. Likewise, the Chinook display is indeed magnificent. My point was a more general one. The vast majority of spectators at shows and other events haven't got a clue and simply want entertainment, not a lesson in history. Sad I guess, but undoubtedly true.
This could go on for a very long time. WH904 you have your opinion, I don't tend to agree with it, having been there I know that lots of young people admire what both teams do, perhaps you should go to an airshow and see for yourself. Better yet, stand outside the fence at coningsby on any weekend in the summer and then tell me that the only things young people are interested in are the Reds, FJs, etc.. Get there soon, BBMFs OOSD is 2023..
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Well please don't imagine that I'm just making assumptions. I've been standing outside airfields (including Coningsby) since about 1970. I went to every Finningley show since about 1965 and most of the main shows at Waddington, Mildenhall, Greenham, Fairford, St.Mawgan, Yeovilton, Church Fenton, Binbrook, Coningsby, Lakenheath, Biggin, Farnborough and many more. I've also been working in aerospace media for thirty years, so I think it's fair to say that I have a pretty good grasp of how things are.
Okay, I'm fully aware of younger people who are very interested in all aspects of aviation (you only need to look in the ATC for that) but what I've tried to explain is that this doesn't represent the much larger majority of typical show spectators. Yes, a Spitfire roaring over a fete at close quarters is enough to get anyone's attention, but we're talking about BBMF here. We might appreciate them but the wider public, particularly youngsters want to see the fast jets and the Reds. I could throw the same invitation to you - next year, go to a big show and don't just mingle with the enthusiasts, go and watch/listen amongst the main crowds. They usually don't even know what they're looking at. For the majority, they're waiting to see the Reds.
Okay, I'm fully aware of younger people who are very interested in all aspects of aviation (you only need to look in the ATC for that) but what I've tried to explain is that this doesn't represent the much larger majority of typical show spectators. Yes, a Spitfire roaring over a fete at close quarters is enough to get anyone's attention, but we're talking about BBMF here. We might appreciate them but the wider public, particularly youngsters want to see the fast jets and the Reds. I could throw the same invitation to you - next year, go to a big show and don't just mingle with the enthusiasts, go and watch/listen amongst the main crowds. They usually don't even know what they're looking at. For the majority, they're waiting to see the Reds.
Originally Posted by WH904
I could throw the same invitation to you - next year, go to a big show and don't just mingle with the enthusiasts, go and watch/listen amongst the main crowds. They usually don't even know what they're looking at. For the majority, they're waiting to see the Reds.
However, you say go to a big show....... but those are getting fewer and fewer, almost to the point that you need to be an enthusiast to make the effort to go to one of those, thereby the Reds factor reduces, and BBMF perhaps increases. There's not exactly a wealth of RAF At Home displays anymore, and will there be anymore BofB At Home displays once Leuchars closes?
That might mean Waddo is the only RAF show left
There's no USAFE UK base days anymore, which pretty much leaves RIAT.
If requests for BBMF displays were on the wane, I would say you have a valid point, but I think you'll find that isn't the case, if anything the opposite.
If anything, you could say there's more scope for a BBMF future than the Reds, or at least a dedicated 9-ship Reds as we've known for the past 45+ years.
Perhaps a volunteer Swedish AF Historic Flight jet based idea may have been the route to take before we had scrapped everything from the past, but it's too late for that now anyway. You could argue, the antique Hawks of the Reds are close to that anyway
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almost to the point that you need to be an enthusiast to make the effort to go to one of those
I'd be inclined to agree, as that's certainly how I look at things now. From an enthusiast viewpoint the shows are not worth going to, and it's only the really eager and younger enthusiasts who seem to derive much pleasure from them, presumably because they've never known anything better.
But when I've discussed this subject before, it ultimately leads to comments from organisers, and they inevitably say (or at least imply) that enthusiasts are only a small consideration in the wider scheme of things, because the shows are aimed squarely at the general public. Naturally, the aircraft types are geared towards those with a real interest, but from a commercial point of view, they're only interested in making sure Joe Public has a "fun day out for all the family" which inevitably means the Reds, or fast jets, wing walkers and so on.
I assume that before too long Waddington will indeed be the only RAF show and on the basis of this year's I think they need to do something pretty drastic to make the show into something more meaningful for those of us who are actually interested in military aircraft, RAF, etc. As it is, the show is based on the assumption that Joe Public will be happy with all the usual show acts, fairground, blah, blah. But I can't help thinking this notion of soldiering-on with the same approach will ultimately lead nowhere. Surely, as costs increase, admission prices increase, the number of "acts" gets less, and it will get to a point where even Joe Public isn't interested any more. Then what?
As I've said, BBMF are an important part of many events but it would be wrong to assume that Joe Public (or at least most of them) have any great interest in them. Okay, they might glance at the Lancaster or fighters but you only need to watch and listen to see that they're really not interested. It's the older people who naturally appreciate the BBMF. All well and good, but when older people slowly disappear from the shows (as they already do) then BBMF is catering for a dwindling audience. My view is that it would be far cheaper to simply abandon BBMF and bring-in civilian warbird operators for any ceremonies that deserve a WWII presence.
Like I said, BoB is an important event but it's foolish to commemorate that and ignore everything else. It presents a warped vision of aerial warfare. Given that it's impossible to commemorate everything, then commemorate nothing, surely?
The RAFAT is the RAF's flagship public face and rightly so. Even they can't last much longer unless (by some miracle) some sort of industry deal can be made to support new Hawks, which I seriously doubt. So what then? It would be absurd to lose the Reds and still be financing a very selective Historic Flight that commemorates only part of WWII.
I think the problem is that a lot of people regard BBMF with huge affection (and understandably so), and recoil in horror at the very idea of losing them. But it's at odds with reality. In effect BBMF already commemorates more than just the BoB but it's absurd to suppose that every other aspect of the RAF's history is therefore not worth the same amount of attention. As I've said before, it would surely make sense (for example) to keep a Vulcan flying, given the V-Force's importance which was arguably more significant than even the BofB. But we know that's financially impossible, so it's vaguely ridiculous to then support BBMF just on the basis that they are more affordable. That's hardly the right way to look at an Historic Flight.
It's rather like where we came in here. The notion of adding a Mosquito to BBMF sounds great but surely nobody seriously imagines it's a viable proposition even if one was available? And even if it was, then what precisely does the Mosquito commemorate, and on the same basis, then where's the Defiant, Typhoon, Halifax, Stirling and everything else? There's an endless list.
I don't doubt that while BBMF survives it's a good thing, but I just wish the die-hard WWII enthusiasts could understand that WWII is just one significant event in history, but there are many others, and some are arguably just as, or more important, especially to younger generations.
Far better to simply abandon the notion of Historic Flights when we all know it's impossible to obtain and fly anything like the number of aircraft types that would rightly deserve a place in it. Sell 'em off and bring them back when they are really needed, in civilian hands. Surely, the RAFAT is a more important issue, given their huge popularity and importance for foreign relations and trade, etc. Easy for us enthusiasts to scoff at the Reds but that's because we're used to them. Worth remembering that they're the very best - truly a national treasure - and they may well soon be gone. Bit sad to be obsessing about some wild plan to get a Mosquito under those circumstances, n'est-ce pas?
I'd be inclined to agree, as that's certainly how I look at things now. From an enthusiast viewpoint the shows are not worth going to, and it's only the really eager and younger enthusiasts who seem to derive much pleasure from them, presumably because they've never known anything better.
But when I've discussed this subject before, it ultimately leads to comments from organisers, and they inevitably say (or at least imply) that enthusiasts are only a small consideration in the wider scheme of things, because the shows are aimed squarely at the general public. Naturally, the aircraft types are geared towards those with a real interest, but from a commercial point of view, they're only interested in making sure Joe Public has a "fun day out for all the family" which inevitably means the Reds, or fast jets, wing walkers and so on.
I assume that before too long Waddington will indeed be the only RAF show and on the basis of this year's I think they need to do something pretty drastic to make the show into something more meaningful for those of us who are actually interested in military aircraft, RAF, etc. As it is, the show is based on the assumption that Joe Public will be happy with all the usual show acts, fairground, blah, blah. But I can't help thinking this notion of soldiering-on with the same approach will ultimately lead nowhere. Surely, as costs increase, admission prices increase, the number of "acts" gets less, and it will get to a point where even Joe Public isn't interested any more. Then what?
As I've said, BBMF are an important part of many events but it would be wrong to assume that Joe Public (or at least most of them) have any great interest in them. Okay, they might glance at the Lancaster or fighters but you only need to watch and listen to see that they're really not interested. It's the older people who naturally appreciate the BBMF. All well and good, but when older people slowly disappear from the shows (as they already do) then BBMF is catering for a dwindling audience. My view is that it would be far cheaper to simply abandon BBMF and bring-in civilian warbird operators for any ceremonies that deserve a WWII presence.
Like I said, BoB is an important event but it's foolish to commemorate that and ignore everything else. It presents a warped vision of aerial warfare. Given that it's impossible to commemorate everything, then commemorate nothing, surely?
The RAFAT is the RAF's flagship public face and rightly so. Even they can't last much longer unless (by some miracle) some sort of industry deal can be made to support new Hawks, which I seriously doubt. So what then? It would be absurd to lose the Reds and still be financing a very selective Historic Flight that commemorates only part of WWII.
I think the problem is that a lot of people regard BBMF with huge affection (and understandably so), and recoil in horror at the very idea of losing them. But it's at odds with reality. In effect BBMF already commemorates more than just the BoB but it's absurd to suppose that every other aspect of the RAF's history is therefore not worth the same amount of attention. As I've said before, it would surely make sense (for example) to keep a Vulcan flying, given the V-Force's importance which was arguably more significant than even the BofB. But we know that's financially impossible, so it's vaguely ridiculous to then support BBMF just on the basis that they are more affordable. That's hardly the right way to look at an Historic Flight.
It's rather like where we came in here. The notion of adding a Mosquito to BBMF sounds great but surely nobody seriously imagines it's a viable proposition even if one was available? And even if it was, then what precisely does the Mosquito commemorate, and on the same basis, then where's the Defiant, Typhoon, Halifax, Stirling and everything else? There's an endless list.
I don't doubt that while BBMF survives it's a good thing, but I just wish the die-hard WWII enthusiasts could understand that WWII is just one significant event in history, but there are many others, and some are arguably just as, or more important, especially to younger generations.
Far better to simply abandon the notion of Historic Flights when we all know it's impossible to obtain and fly anything like the number of aircraft types that would rightly deserve a place in it. Sell 'em off and bring them back when they are really needed, in civilian hands. Surely, the RAFAT is a more important issue, given their huge popularity and importance for foreign relations and trade, etc. Easy for us enthusiasts to scoff at the Reds but that's because we're used to them. Worth remembering that they're the very best - truly a national treasure - and they may well soon be gone. Bit sad to be obsessing about some wild plan to get a Mosquito under those circumstances, n'est-ce pas?
Last edited by WH904; 6th Sep 2013 at 10:10.
There's something in this. My eldest treated me to the RIAT show this year. I'm 63, he's 32. Whilst I was drooling over the Connie he was glued to the blokes giving rides in the Caterhams.
Tabs please !
The YouTube clip on the Chinook site gives an idea of the extreme manoeuvering
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A mossie would be perfect for the display, financed by the lottery and
maintained by a newly formed group of experts whose brief would be
to keep it, and other memorial flight aircraft, in top flying condition
certified by themselves without recourse to the CAA.
lnsurance risks covered by the government.
l was stunned to see the one on display at Hendon when l visited earlier
this week, four years since my last visit.
ln `97 l remember seeing lumps of mosquito laid about on the floor at
Duxford being etch primed,etc. Same one l assume.
lt`s breathtakingly beautiful.
maintained by a newly formed group of experts whose brief would be
to keep it, and other memorial flight aircraft, in top flying condition
certified by themselves without recourse to the CAA.
lnsurance risks covered by the government.
l was stunned to see the one on display at Hendon when l visited earlier
this week, four years since my last visit.
ln `97 l remember seeing lumps of mosquito laid about on the floor at
Duxford being etch primed,etc. Same one l assume.
lt`s breathtakingly beautiful.
10W - I was at the RAF Museum last Tuesday - I share your view on the Mosquito. Had to sit in the JP for nostalgic reasons and ended up explaining to a number of youngsters how the controls work and what the instruments tell - I wonder if it would not be worth having an attendant or volunteer with the JP every half hour or so explain things, which would teach the kids more than just banging the control column and rudder bar about. Maybe I am just getting old!
Wander00. The RAF Museum at Hendon has (I assume it is still there) a gallery with working models that demonstrate controls and aerodynamics.
It is used mainly for school visits.
There is also a similar scheme in Air & Space at Duxford. Both appear to be popular with 'young' people of all ages.
mmitch.
It is used mainly for school visits.
There is also a similar scheme in Air & Space at Duxford. Both appear to be popular with 'young' people of all ages.
mmitch.
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I cannot believe that there are people posting on this forum who denigrate the BBMF. When they compare the Flight with the reds it seems to me that they have completely missed the point of why we spend a little bit of public money on preserving the memory of 'Britain's Finest Hour'. LEST WE FORGET.
Perhaps the Lancaster fogs the issue and the Mossie would obscure it more but the fact remains that the Battle of Britain still represents to all those in this country who know and respect their aviation history that this was indeed our finest hour.
I know how much people enjoy and anticipate displays by the reds and they are a very big airshow attraction; however, we keep BBMF flying for a completely different reason - we want to remember our finest hour and a great many people in our country do not want to forget the sacrifice made in defence of our country. We enjoy peace but it came at a high price for many - lest we forget.
Perhaps the Lancaster fogs the issue and the Mossie would obscure it more but the fact remains that the Battle of Britain still represents to all those in this country who know and respect their aviation history that this was indeed our finest hour.
I know how much people enjoy and anticipate displays by the reds and they are a very big airshow attraction; however, we keep BBMF flying for a completely different reason - we want to remember our finest hour and a great many people in our country do not want to forget the sacrifice made in defence of our country. We enjoy peace but it came at a high price for many - lest we forget.
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Well in my defence I did pretty-much say that, if you read what I said. But I also said that it's a bit odd to commemorate only one important historical event... well, two, technically-speaking. As I said before, the events that can really be classed as commemoration (rather than simply a show) are relatively few, so it would be cheaper to simply get a civilian in to do the job when it was needed. Basically, what I'm saying is that we've come a long, long way from WWII therefore it's a bit questionable to have a unit devoted to commemorating one event, when there are others that are just as important. Given that we can't commemorate them all, perhaps it would make more sense to abandon the notion and devote what finances are left to the Reds, on the basis that they are perfectly capable of commemorating any of the RAF's past exploits - simply by being representative of the RAF as a whole. As it is, we'll probably end up with neither the BBMF or RAFAT before too long.