Risk of Being Shot Down as Battle of Britain Pilot - Same Odds...?

[thing]

What Stalin actually said - according to Stephen Goranson who has researched this quote - when talking about a famine in the Ukraine was;

"If only one man dies of hunger that is a tragedy. If millions die, that's only statistics."

As Simeon Strunsky so astutely observed;

"Famous remarks are very seldom quoted correctly."

Point taken, words incorrect, same point made though. How do you know Goranson got it right?

[hanoijane]

thing,

Oh, I don't. I was simply telling you what I believe to be true. I could be wrong. It happens.

Anyway, I took your point. Every death is a tragedy, whether you happen to be the first or the millionth.

Sorry to hear about your great uncle. I'm sure he was loved and missed.

[Brian Abraham]

How many did Bomber Command loose in 1940 compared to 1942 or 1943

The 1940 figure is not included, but you can see from the above the total figures for Bomber Command are

1941 1,326
1942 1,789
1943 2,823
1944 3,238

finestkind, re survival, the German experience was that only eight of their 107 fighter pilots who scored more than 100 victories joined their squadrons after mid 1942. Those who had survived the attrition of the first air battles, and honed their skills, had little difficulty defeating new Allied pilots. As the war progressed the German pilots were receiving progressively less and less training prior to being thrust into combat. With Allied fighters ranging over Europe in the later stages, even German ab initio students became targets while on training flights.

[Load Toad]

In reading I've done it should be noted:
- The Germans could only end a tour if they died or were incapacitated
- The Germans often loaded up on kills against very inexperienced pilots and / or in inferior machines (early in the war esp in Russia)
- The Germans (wrongfully) promoted the concept of the master hunter / ace and 'lesser' pilots acted to protect the ace who went after the kills.
- Some German pilots reportedly felt they were merely cannon fodder whilst these aces got the glory.

[rolling20]

I am late on this one, but here goes. No debate about Bomber Command losses is complete without the work of Freeman Dyson, who went straight from Winchester to the Operational Research Section of Bomber Command. He is by the way still alive. He computed that by taking all the turrets out of bombers, along with their gunners, would increase their speed by some 50mph. The Lanc would therefore have cruised at about 250mph with a top speed of around 340mph. This would have made them much more difficult a target for the Me110s and Ju88s ,which along with Lichenstein radar and Scharge Musik, were a lot slower than their designers originally intended. Indeed Night fighter ace Peter Spoden stated the Me110 was a `heavy ship`. So what did Arthur Harris do? Absolutely nothing. It was decided that it was better to have the turrets in place for the basis of morale. Also the production lines were all geared up for turrets. Harris did towards the end of the war equip some Lancs with .5 inch rear turrets. This was done on his own initiative with the firm of Roses in Gainsborough Linconshire.

Dyson was also concerned with the poor survival rate from Lancs. He estimated 10,000 crewmen lost their lives due to the main hatch being some two inches narrower than in other bombers. Yet again nothing was done until it was too late and the war was almost over. We have to remember that this was total war. The losses they suffered night after night, would not be acceptable now. Back then armour plate was ripped out to increase bomb load at the expense of crew survival. All that mattered to Harris, his Group Commanders and Squadron Commanders was Tonnage! There were tonnage ladders and a Squadron was judged on bombs dropped, not the least number of losses. Some crews went through a tour never firing a shot in anger, others lasted all but one mission. As an example of how experience did not necessarily ensure survival: On 1.1.44 156 Squadron (Pathfinders) lost four out of 18 despatched to Berlin (some 22%) including two Flight Commanders who had amassed 118 sorties between them.

[ShotOne]

Contrary to intuition, skill had very little to do with survival rate. It really was mostly down to which coloured light the Luftwaffe controller decided to vector his (often her!) fighter on to. In my opinion the Air Staff were well aware of this and instituted the bomber "stream" as a calculated and effective way of improving the odds but were keen to avoid saying as much to the crews, hence the reluctance to ditch the gunners and turrets.