Last Squadron Leader OC of an RAF squadron?
So the air force will continue with Gp Capt who don't command Groups, Sqn Ldr who don't lead Squadrons... and there are questions why we are in such a broken mess.
Gp Capt nif naf and trivia, Wg Cmd AB&C and Sqn Ldr tea, white one sugar.
Gp Capt nif naf and trivia, Wg Cmd AB&C and Sqn Ldr tea, white one sugar.
Were it not for Field Marshal Wilson (and to a lesser extent Admiral Beatty), the RAF might very well have used the Army ranks it began life with, which'd have ended the multiple posts and threads I've seen here and on the Army means decrying the fact that Sqn Ldrs don't lead squadrons before they began.
Genuine question here, for I don't know the answer - but how many air forces of any notable size have squadrons (or equivalent formations) under the command of a Sqn Ldr equivalent?
As for FB11's question -assuming that he means a squadron equipped with a fighter or bomber type and serving in a front-line (as opposed to OCU/TWU/OEU) role, 8 Sqn had a Sqn Ldr boss until October 1970, which may make it one of the last fighter squadrons with a Sqn Ldr in command.
I think - I'd have to check, though - that this makes it one of the last squadrons to be in that position, if not the very last. Of course, this omits instances of squadrons being commanded by squadron leaders on a temporary basis, and the already-alluded examples of Sqn Ldrs commanding a squadron with a fighter or bomber numberplate, albeit not directly in that role.
Genuine question here, for I don't know the answer - but how many air forces of any notable size have squadrons (or equivalent formations) under the command of a Sqn Ldr equivalent?
As for FB11's question -assuming that he means a squadron equipped with a fighter or bomber type and serving in a front-line (as opposed to OCU/TWU/OEU) role, 8 Sqn had a Sqn Ldr boss until October 1970, which may make it one of the last fighter squadrons with a Sqn Ldr in command.
I think - I'd have to check, though - that this makes it one of the last squadrons to be in that position, if not the very last. Of course, this omits instances of squadrons being commanded by squadron leaders on a temporary basis, and the already-alluded examples of Sqn Ldrs commanding a squadron with a fighter or bomber numberplate, albeit not directly in that role.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,810
Received 136 Likes
on
64 Posts
Archimedes ... See post #19. When did 20, 45 and 81 wrap up at Tengah?
(Crippled by iPad, but assume you have the references there!)
(Edit = ahhh, all finished in Jan/Feb 70. No 8 Sqn appears to be the winner!)
(Crippled by iPad, but assume you have the references there!)
(Edit = ahhh, all finished in Jan/Feb 70. No 8 Sqn appears to be the winner!)
Last edited by MPN11; 29th Aug 2013 at 17:14.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
jayc, did you read all that I wrote?
International equality of ranks is now the major driver for rank inflation.
Regarding 5* appointments, which terminate in a Lordship, we were the only western power, I think, that continued to appoint officers to 5* rank whereas the cousins only appoint a 5* in time of war.
International equality of ranks is now the major driver for rank inflation.
Regarding 5* appointments, which terminate in a Lordship, we were the only western power, I think, that continued to appoint officers to 5* rank whereas the cousins only appoint a 5* in time of war.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Cleaning up my hard drive I found an article dated 2010 regarding the last Shackleton crash, the article then talked about 204 Sqn, the largest sqn in the RAF with 200 groundcrew, 230 aircrew, and commanded by a sqn ldr. It disbanded in Apr 1972.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Tennessee - Smoky Mountains
Age: 55
Posts: 1,602
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Isn't the real answer that it has nothing to do with the units under command, and is simply that RAF officer ranks follow RN ones (ignoring Plt Offr and FgO)
Flt Lt = Lt
Sqn Ldr = Lt Cdr (exception, but a Major in the cavalry is called a sqn ldr)
Wg Cdr = Cdr
Group Capt = Capt
Air Cdre = Cdre
The progression of Flt>Sqn>Wg>Gp doesn't follow (and really, hasn't ever followed) what they command in terms of units. How many RAF stations with a Gp Capt have had two multi-sqn flying wings under command?
Of course the above ignores silly titles like Admin Wg, Ops Wg etc on a station.
Flt Lt = Lt
Sqn Ldr = Lt Cdr (exception, but a Major in the cavalry is called a sqn ldr)
Wg Cdr = Cdr
Group Capt = Capt
Air Cdre = Cdre
The progression of Flt>Sqn>Wg>Gp doesn't follow (and really, hasn't ever followed) what they command in terms of units. How many RAF stations with a Gp Capt have had two multi-sqn flying wings under command?
Of course the above ignores silly titles like Admin Wg, Ops Wg etc on a station.
Rank inflation is not just a RAF issue. I think you will find it in every Western Military.
In the good old days Squadron commanders only had to create operational capabilities. Now they are so loaded with non war fighting admin BS they need to be indoctrinated at staff college and have all the other “career broadening” postings before they can be trusted with a unit command.
Unfortunately rank inflation is a self licking ice cream cone. None of the existing senior officers are going to admit that they are over ranked for their positions.
In the good old days Squadron commanders only had to create operational capabilities. Now they are so loaded with non war fighting admin BS they need to be indoctrinated at staff college and have all the other “career broadening” postings before they can be trusted with a unit command.
Unfortunately rank inflation is a self licking ice cream cone. None of the existing senior officers are going to admit that they are over ranked for their positions.
Now Easy Street says an XO has 6 or 8 aircrew under him. In the 60s a V-force flight commander had 53. This increase may be directly attributed to the Hodgekinson which recommended up to 300 overborne sqn ldrs in the GD branch. This saw V bomber sqns go from one sqn ldr for 11 crews/53 aircrew to 5 sqn ldrs for 10 crews/44 aircrew - the same as your present FJ figure.
.
If we take the above as sensible, then you'd be hard pushed to not make a FJ flt CDR a sqn ldr simply for career parity.
Aside from that, if everyone really was bothered I'm sure we could "re-brand" and change the name at every rank down one level so that we fit the WW1 model of a flying squadron. That doesn't feel like progress though....
<Edit> FWIW I agree with the post above about 24hr capability of a sqn in the 21st century Vs a historic flying "wing". There are many blunter types who command "squadrons" with wing commanders in charge of "BS wing" etc. It feels sensible on the units I've worked on that the sqn bosses are at rank parity with those types.
Why would anyone link the name of a rank to the size of a squadron? Even if it was linked just what kind of role would we even be talking about - logistics squadron, engineering, admin, flying, ops, ATC, Int et al?
As an aside back when I was a sqn ldr flight commander I had just over 100 personnel, mostly aircrew. It also just happened that you had to be at least a squadron leader to run the squadron at home or on ops. Many moons ago I ran a small collection of aircraft in the Falklands. We were known as a 'Flight', as was the other fixed wing flight next door. The third flying unit was rotary, similar size and commanded at the same rank but was known as 78 Squadron. None of it really matters.
As an aside back when I was a sqn ldr flight commander I had just over 100 personnel, mostly aircrew. It also just happened that you had to be at least a squadron leader to run the squadron at home or on ops. Many moons ago I ran a small collection of aircraft in the Falklands. We were known as a 'Flight', as was the other fixed wing flight next door. The third flying unit was rotary, similar size and commanded at the same rank but was known as 78 Squadron. None of it really matters.
As a sqn ldr, I had a sqn of 750 souls, but they did not aviate, so I suppose that does not count,
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Somewhere flat
Age: 68
Posts: 5,563
Likes: 0
Received 45 Likes
on
30 Posts
I've just been leafing through Martin Bowman's book "Lightning Strikes Twice" he states that the C.O. of 23 Squadron at Leuchars as of 15th September 1972 was a Squadron Leader. But I don't believe any fully constituted Operational Squadrons were co'd by any other than the rank of Wing Commander by then. The rank gradually replaced Squadron Leader during the war as it was deamed worthy for commanding the new four-engined Bombers i.e. Lancaster, Halifax, Stirling and what have you! Hence Wing Commander Guy Gibson. All the B.O.B. Fighter Squadrons were led by Squadron Leaders.
FB the 1st
FB the 1st
Now that this thread has been necrobumped, can we expand the question to the other Services? My best understanding is that FAA FJ squadrons still had Lt Cdr COs until some point in the 1980s, and all (?) Army Air Corps squadrons are commanded by Majors. Is the latter because an Army squadron is a smaller unit, being the equivalent of a Cavalry squadron which is akin to an Infantry company, and adminstratively part of an AAC regiment (which is confusingly equivalent to an Infantry batallion which is smaller than a regiment)? Or is it just that they've avoided rank inflation longer than the rest?
In the Lt Cdr CO days it was normal to have other Lt Cdrs on the squadron, the authority went with the berth not the rank. I do remember suddenly realising nearly all NAS COs were now commanders but having long returned to civilian life I wasn't aware of the reason. It clearly made sense under JFH that the CO of 800/801/NSW had the equivalent rank to the RAF squadron COs, so I wondered if it spread from there, especially when a number of squadrons were taking on the roles and aircraft of others that were stood down - anyone know the real reason?
Just been looking through some partially complete CO lists for 1(F) to 50 squadrons and my initial thoughts are that there was a clear change around the time of the formation of Strike Command, as from the late 60s squadrons like 1(F), II(AC) and 43(F)changed from Sqn Ldr to Wg Cdr, 22 still had a Sqn Ldr CO in 1976 and possibly later (but not an F or B unit).
Additional Note re 204: then Sqn Ldr later Air Cdre Leppard's predecessors as CO back to 1955 were all Wg Cdrs - there are quite a few instances of Sqn Ldr COs between long lists of Wg Cdrs who were in post for a few months but in this case it was over a year.
Additional Note re 204: then Sqn Ldr later Air Cdre Leppard's predecessors as CO back to 1955 were all Wg Cdrs - there are quite a few instances of Sqn Ldr COs between long lists of Wg Cdrs who were in post for a few months but in this case it was over a year.
Last edited by SLXOwft; 16th Jan 2024 at 12:06. Reason: 204 Squadron
