Gibraltar
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Nonsense AB
HK came in two bits - the islands plus a little bit of Tsim Tsa Sui south of Boundary Road were ceded to the UK by treaty (an "unequal treaty" but a treaty none the less) forever
The vast majority of the colony's area were the New Territories which had a 99 year lease - no-one ever thought it was for life - and the Chinese stood by the deal for 99 years. It was a clear contract - hell, we WROTE it!!
The problem, apart from the fact that Boundary Road was now right in the middle of the modern city, was that all the water supplies, plus the old airport were in the NT. When the NT were handed back all the Chinese had to do was turn a tap and the "UK" bits of HK ran out of water in a week......
The British knew they had a 99 year lease and occasionaly tried to extend it - the Chinese, who banged on about the unequal treaty, did very little but wait and refused to renogiate the lease (I've had landlords like that)
The British would have had to fight to hold onto the NT after the lease expired and funnily enough no-one thought (on any side) that that was a brilliant idea
The Chinese never really argued about HK island etc - they knew it would fall into their hands eventually
Both sides played a long game (the Chinese are reputed to believe that the British Foreign Office are the only people who have a similar view of time as they do) and TBH the outcome was a damn sight better than fighting a useless, hopeless war and wrecking the joint and killing several million people
HK came in two bits - the islands plus a little bit of Tsim Tsa Sui south of Boundary Road were ceded to the UK by treaty (an "unequal treaty" but a treaty none the less) forever
The vast majority of the colony's area were the New Territories which had a 99 year lease - no-one ever thought it was for life - and the Chinese stood by the deal for 99 years. It was a clear contract - hell, we WROTE it!!
The problem, apart from the fact that Boundary Road was now right in the middle of the modern city, was that all the water supplies, plus the old airport were in the NT. When the NT were handed back all the Chinese had to do was turn a tap and the "UK" bits of HK ran out of water in a week......
The British knew they had a 99 year lease and occasionaly tried to extend it - the Chinese, who banged on about the unequal treaty, did very little but wait and refused to renogiate the lease (I've had landlords like that)
The British would have had to fight to hold onto the NT after the lease expired and funnily enough no-one thought (on any side) that that was a brilliant idea
The Chinese never really argued about HK island etc - they knew it would fall into their hands eventually
Both sides played a long game (the Chinese are reputed to believe that the British Foreign Office are the only people who have a similar view of time as they do) and TBH the outcome was a damn sight better than fighting a useless, hopeless war and wrecking the joint and killing several million people
Last edited by Heathrow Harry; 9th Aug 2013 at 09:36.
Ceuta and Melilla were annexed by Spain by force and their "ownership"has never been ratified by any treaty, afaik.
Portugal yielded Ceuta to Spain on January 1, 1668, at the signing of a peace treaty at Lisbon between D. Afonso VI of Portugal and Carlos II of Spain, by mediation of Charles II of England.
LJ
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If the Spanish do return to the Rock, would they please have a thorough search for the £1000s I lost there over 20 odd years of Nimrod detachments?
I even ended up there on 2 occasions when I was on exchange with the Canadians at Greenwood!
I even ended up there on 2 occasions when I was on exchange with the Canadians at Greenwood!
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Easily solved.
Grant Gibraltar independence.
Allow them to join the Commonwealth and the EU.
Then let the UN sort it out.
Oh, hold on.................... I think I mentioned that about the Falkand Islands.
Funny how history repeats itself.
Grant Gibraltar independence.
Allow them to join the Commonwealth and the EU.
Then let the UN sort it out.
Oh, hold on.................... I think I mentioned that about the Falkand Islands.
Funny how history repeats itself.
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The whole thing is an attempt by the Spanish PM to deflect domestic news away from the fact that he has recently been accused of accepting bribes.
Received today:
Received today:
All right, Spain. You’ve asked for this.
You’ve issued one of your five-yearly threats to seize, impound, disrupt, tax or otherwise penalise Gibraltar and its residents on the grounds that this small bit of rock is attached to the bigger bit of rock you call home.
For some, this provides irrefutable proof that Gibraltar is Spanish. Presumably in the same way that China is Russian and Denmark belongs to Germany.
Not letting logic get in his way, your foreign minister has declared ‘the party’s over’ and threatened 100 euro fines for people crossing the border, banning flights from Spanish air space and generally started behaving like Franco in a particularly belligerent mood.
Very well. Let’s look at the facts, shall we?
1. Gibraltar is about as Spanish as pie and chips. The first recorded occupants were Lebanese traders , followed by Germans, Romans, and the Islamic empire. The first castle was built by a Berber sultan and it wasn’t captured by the Spanish until 1462.
2. Twelve years later you sold it.
3. You spent 200 years or so invading much of the world, killing millions of Amerindians with smallpox , and burning and torturing those that survived because they didn’t think eating a thin bit of flour and water was the same thing as eating the body of a man they’d never met .
4. You tried to do the same here, first by marriage and then by invasion . Not the best way to make friends.
5. You did nothing very much with Gib for two centuries and then lost it in a fight with us and the Dutch. The fight was about whether a French prince could succeed to the Spanish crown and thus rule half of Europe. Most of Europe didn’t like the idea, and you were invaded by pretty much everyone up to and including the Holy Roman Empire.
6. Unsurprisingly, you lost. We all signed the Treaty of Utrecht in which the French prince was allowed to have Spain so long as he promised to be nice and sign away a few things. Article X states: “The Catholic King does hereby, for himself, his heirs and successors, yield to the Crown of Great Britain the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications and forts hereunto belonging; and he gives up the said propriety to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever.”
7. There’s not a lot of wriggle-room in that. Lawyers, eh?
8. What you gave us in 1714 was a 300-year-old Moorish castle, a medieval town and a fishing port. In the years since we have turned it into a naval base, a financial centre, tourist destination and online gaming base which turns over £650million a year and provides employment for 10,000 of your citizens. You’re welcome.
9. The last person who seriously laid claim to it is the fascist dictator you’d rather forget, and there were referendums in 1967 and 2002 which found 99% of the population wanted to remain British.
10. In 500 years of warring you’ve lost far more often than you’ve won and you have, most noticeably, consistently failed to win against us. You tried to seize Gibraltar by force twice in the 18th century and failed miserably on each attempt, since we smashed your Armada in 1588 it’s never been the same since.
Considering all this, it is entirely understandable that with your economy on its arse, suicides endemic following eviction and a government not so much beleaguered as halfway to hell and still digging you might feel the need to hark back to the days of empire and rattle the old sabre a bit.
You are though on rather shaky ground, not just because you signed a contract and the 30,000 Gibraltarians want you in charge of them about as much as they want to contract the ebola virus.
You’ve issued one of your five-yearly threats to seize, impound, disrupt, tax or otherwise penalise Gibraltar and its residents on the grounds that this small bit of rock is attached to the bigger bit of rock you call home.
For some, this provides irrefutable proof that Gibraltar is Spanish. Presumably in the same way that China is Russian and Denmark belongs to Germany.
Not letting logic get in his way, your foreign minister has declared ‘the party’s over’ and threatened 100 euro fines for people crossing the border, banning flights from Spanish air space and generally started behaving like Franco in a particularly belligerent mood.
Very well. Let’s look at the facts, shall we?
1. Gibraltar is about as Spanish as pie and chips. The first recorded occupants were Lebanese traders , followed by Germans, Romans, and the Islamic empire. The first castle was built by a Berber sultan and it wasn’t captured by the Spanish until 1462.
2. Twelve years later you sold it.
3. You spent 200 years or so invading much of the world, killing millions of Amerindians with smallpox , and burning and torturing those that survived because they didn’t think eating a thin bit of flour and water was the same thing as eating the body of a man they’d never met .
4. You tried to do the same here, first by marriage and then by invasion . Not the best way to make friends.
5. You did nothing very much with Gib for two centuries and then lost it in a fight with us and the Dutch. The fight was about whether a French prince could succeed to the Spanish crown and thus rule half of Europe. Most of Europe didn’t like the idea, and you were invaded by pretty much everyone up to and including the Holy Roman Empire.
6. Unsurprisingly, you lost. We all signed the Treaty of Utrecht in which the French prince was allowed to have Spain so long as he promised to be nice and sign away a few things. Article X states: “The Catholic King does hereby, for himself, his heirs and successors, yield to the Crown of Great Britain the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications and forts hereunto belonging; and he gives up the said propriety to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever.”
7. There’s not a lot of wriggle-room in that. Lawyers, eh?
8. What you gave us in 1714 was a 300-year-old Moorish castle, a medieval town and a fishing port. In the years since we have turned it into a naval base, a financial centre, tourist destination and online gaming base which turns over £650million a year and provides employment for 10,000 of your citizens. You’re welcome.
9. The last person who seriously laid claim to it is the fascist dictator you’d rather forget, and there were referendums in 1967 and 2002 which found 99% of the population wanted to remain British.
10. In 500 years of warring you’ve lost far more often than you’ve won and you have, most noticeably, consistently failed to win against us. You tried to seize Gibraltar by force twice in the 18th century and failed miserably on each attempt, since we smashed your Armada in 1588 it’s never been the same since.
Considering all this, it is entirely understandable that with your economy on its arse, suicides endemic following eviction and a government not so much beleaguered as halfway to hell and still digging you might feel the need to hark back to the days of empire and rattle the old sabre a bit.
You are though on rather shaky ground, not just because you signed a contract and the 30,000 Gibraltarians want you in charge of them about as much as they want to contract the ebola virus.
Beerdrinker,
Splendidly put sir, a "magnum opus" of analysis to which the Spaniards will of course, have no answer. If only we could see this put, live, to the Spanish government, and get a reply. Thank you for a more than informative post.
Smudge
Splendidly put sir, a "magnum opus" of analysis to which the Spaniards will of course, have no answer. If only we could see this put, live, to the Spanish government, and get a reply. Thank you for a more than informative post.
Smudge
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Royal Navy to send Task Force to Gib (Daily Mirror)
According to the Mirror the Royal Navy is to send a Task Force to Gib next Monday. One Carrier and two Gunboats (they called them Gunboats not me)plus support ships
Gibraltar: Britain to send Navy warships to Mediterranean in show of force to Spain - Mirror Online
Gibraltar: Britain to send Navy warships to Mediterranean in show of force to Spain - Mirror Online
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According to the Mirror the Royal Navy is to send a Task Force to Gib next Monday. One Carrier and two Gunboats (they called them Gunboats not me)plus support ships
Gibraltar: Britain to send Navy warships to Mediterranean in show of force to Spain - Mirror Online
Gibraltar: Britain to send Navy warships to Mediterranean in show of force to Spain - Mirror Online
This is the third year the routine deployment has taken place, with its aim to demonstrate the ability to operate a highly effective maritime force anywhere in the world to protect UK interests.
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Nice View of the Rock....
I'm here at the moment.....what do you want to know?
Last edited by Belle and Sebastian; 9th Aug 2013 at 14:19. Reason: should have had a quote of a previous question...
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All this well hard macho stuff plays well down the pub, but it's not very real is it?
Spain closed the border with Gib for 16 years a while back (1969 - 1985) and I don't recall us doing too much more than bluster about it then.
I know a fair bit about The Rock, Spain and Spanish people (evidently a lot more than most of here) and IMO the quickest way to get the opposite of what you want from the Spanish is to confront them. They don't back down too quick...It's their Arabic/Roman origins don't you know.
Not in anyway sticking up for them...just trying to bring a little reality into fantasy land.
Silly me.
Spain closed the border with Gib for 16 years a while back (1969 - 1985) and I don't recall us doing too much more than bluster about it then.
I know a fair bit about The Rock, Spain and Spanish people (evidently a lot more than most of here) and IMO the quickest way to get the opposite of what you want from the Spanish is to confront them. They don't back down too quick...It's their Arabic/Roman origins don't you know.
Not in anyway sticking up for them...just trying to bring a little reality into fantasy land.
Silly me.
If Lusty is going to Gib then we could always embark some NATO Harriers - oh, hang on they're Spanish! 
Maybe it's a cunning plan to lure them onto Lusty by making them think she's the PDA and then we claim them as war booty!
LJ
PS Just noticed that PDA was decommisioned this year - that scuppers my cunning plan!
Maybe it's a cunning plan to lure them onto Lusty by making them think she's the PDA and then we claim them as war booty!
LJ
PS Just noticed that PDA was decommisioned this year - that scuppers my cunning plan!
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 10th Aug 2013 at 10:01.
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TOFO
Wonderful, a post from the real world.
As one who might be thought (due to my location) to have to defend this with the locals here, I find the conversation is still almost exclusively about food and drink.
Wonderful, a post from the real world.
As one who might be thought (due to my location) to have to defend this with the locals here, I find the conversation is still almost exclusively about food and drink.
Sadly Leon J. adds a prescient point. Far from Lusty's sailpast being a timely show of force, isnt it a signature of impotence to parade a FW carrier with no actual FW aircraft, when the incumbents are the one regional nation who possess it? Any on the ball Spanish journo should be able to point out the obvious symptoms of a post colonial nation in decline and fuel the fire. BTW, what if it had been Harriers not Mirages being gifted to Argentina? Irony or what!
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Originally Posted by Coochycool
Far from Lusty's sailpast being a timely show of force, isnt it a signature of impotence to parade a FW carrier with no actual FW aircraft, when the incumbents are the one regional nation who possess it?
Last edited by GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU; 11th Aug 2013 at 08:06. Reason: Mong Typing
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Perhaps that's just as well...dont forget this is all a contrived diversion for the Spanish PM to draw attention from his national economic shambles and personal corruption allegations. Let's not spend whats left of our defence budget on giving him exactly what he wants!