Mossie : The Plane That Saved Britain
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Luckily for us the Japanese went for Pearl Harbour.
But in reality, the plane that won the war? For me it's the C47.
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 19th Jul 2013 at 21:23.
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Originally Posted by Fareastdriver:7949348
What the Japanese should have done was to ignore the United States completely. They had USA sanctions against them but their best course of action would have been to cement the Axis Pact and invade Russia.
Their troops in Manchuria would have driven northwards and cut the Trans Siberia Railway. This would have isolated the Russian Far East Army which was pivotal in halting the German advance in the west. In fact they were kept in the Far East until Pearl Harbour for this very reason. They could then put the Sino Japanese war on hold, if not by truce but by inactivity. Chiang Kai Shek would immediately, knowing that the Communists would be having supply problems from the Soviet Union, go at Mao’s throat and clear up his own problem.
The Wehrmacht, unhampered by the Far East Army would have continued their advance east of Moscow leaving Leningrad and Stalingrad withering on the vine.
The United States would have no reason to join in the war. In fact the Japanese actions against Russia would be admired by many Republicans. The problems for Roosevelt would come later.
The Japanese, now being fully paid up members of the Axis would now be at war with the UK. Using Germany’s right of conquest over France and Holland they would occupy Indo China and Sumatra. These would be used as a base to overrun Singapore and the Solomon Islands which would ring fence Australia and New Zealand making their troops unavailable to the UK.
The Germans, meanwhile would have advanced into Southern Asia and may have been in a position to advance down the eastern side of the Persian Gulf thereby putting them in a position to isolate India and Ceylon.
Luckily for us the Japanese went for Pearl Harbour.
Their troops in Manchuria would have driven northwards and cut the Trans Siberia Railway. This would have isolated the Russian Far East Army which was pivotal in halting the German advance in the west. In fact they were kept in the Far East until Pearl Harbour for this very reason. They could then put the Sino Japanese war on hold, if not by truce but by inactivity. Chiang Kai Shek would immediately, knowing that the Communists would be having supply problems from the Soviet Union, go at Mao’s throat and clear up his own problem.
The Wehrmacht, unhampered by the Far East Army would have continued their advance east of Moscow leaving Leningrad and Stalingrad withering on the vine.
The United States would have no reason to join in the war. In fact the Japanese actions against Russia would be admired by many Republicans. The problems for Roosevelt would come later.
The Japanese, now being fully paid up members of the Axis would now be at war with the UK. Using Germany’s right of conquest over France and Holland they would occupy Indo China and Sumatra. These would be used as a base to overrun Singapore and the Solomon Islands which would ring fence Australia and New Zealand making their troops unavailable to the UK.
The Germans, meanwhile would have advanced into Southern Asia and may have been in a position to advance down the eastern side of the Persian Gulf thereby putting them in a position to isolate India and Ceylon.
Luckily for us the Japanese went for Pearl Harbour.
Chevron, re the 633 piece, the crash a/c was fitted with extra air bottles to whip the u/c up quicker. Fitted by dear old Cobby Moore, the gentleman who gave me my first flight in a Prentice at the tender age of 11 39 years ago from Biggin.
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Just thinking ... If we have this much discussion prior to the programme we better get a few more servers hooked up for the post programme dialogue 
All good
Coff.
All good
Coff.
Fareastdriver,
Passed your comments to colleague who pointed out:
"The Japanese did attack the Russians and were catastrophically beaten at the battle of Kalkhin Gol in 1939. They then turned their attention eastwards."
Reminds me of an amusing nautical poem about the ubiquity of Scottish marine engineers containing the lines:
Old Ivan McIvanovitch,with knitted brow of care, . .
. . .The weirdest Russian in the fleet, who's words are strange to hear
And on another battleship, that sailed out from Japan,
. . . With flaming hair and eyes like steel, and he is six foot three-
His name is Jock McNogo, and a fearsome Jap is he.
Passed your comments to colleague who pointed out:
"The Japanese did attack the Russians and were catastrophically beaten at the battle of Kalkhin Gol in 1939. They then turned their attention eastwards."
Reminds me of an amusing nautical poem about the ubiquity of Scottish marine engineers containing the lines:
Old Ivan McIvanovitch,with knitted brow of care, . .
. . .The weirdest Russian in the fleet, who's words are strange to hear
And on another battleship, that sailed out from Japan,
. . . With flaming hair and eyes like steel, and he is six foot three-
His name is Jock McNogo, and a fearsome Jap is he.
Tabs please !
Congrats all, we're having some debate and banter without anyone getting their knickers in a knot. An all too rare occurrence these days.
I think it's time to play another wildcard so I'll mention the B24 Liberator. It's role was to close the Atlantic air cover gap which made a huge difference to the inflow of raw materials which kept us going.
And then there's the PR types of Spitfire such as the 19 etc. so we could confirm where the Jerries really were ahead of D-Day
I think it's time to play another wildcard so I'll mention the B24 Liberator. It's role was to close the Atlantic air cover gap which made a huge difference to the inflow of raw materials which kept us going.
And then there's the PR types of Spitfire such as the 19 etc. so we could confirm where the Jerries really were ahead of D-Day
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Bit belated from me, Chevron, but I remember the filming too. I was helping a friend set up a farm at Little Missenden, and frequently saw a formation of 4, being filmed by a B.25 Mitchell. Ah, nostalgia, eh.!
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Originally Posted by CoffmanStarter:7950516
Just thinking ... If we have this much discussion prior to the programme we better get a few more servers hooked up for the post programme dialogue
All good
Coff.
All good
Coff.
I still think it was the Spit that saved Britain but I look forward to this documentary with an open mind.
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To be honest the Spitfire and Hurricane won the war, because if they had failed in the BOB the rest would or could never have taken place, as the UK would have been in German hands, and nowhere would have existed to invade Europe from.
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The UK would not have been in German hands if the RAF had lost the BOB. The Germans would never have got past the Royal Navy and they new that. The Luftwaffe at the time didn't have effective weapons for dealing with moving warships. Any German invasion fleet would have died in the channel.
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Cobby
Fitted by dear old Cobby Moore, the gentleman who gave me my first flight in a Prentice at the tender age of 11 39 years ago from Biggin.
He is to the best of my knowledge still hard at work at Biggin Hill.
I suspect the Prentice is alive and kicking too.
I remember him, and his red headed wife Susan.
Living in a shipping BOX behind the hangar at Biggin.......and then upgraded to a Range Rover.
A classic gentleman if ever there was a face of Biggin after Jock, it has to beCoby.
Now his would be a good story.... glf
He is to the best of my knowledge still hard at work at Biggin Hill.
I suspect the Prentice is alive and kicking too.
I remember him, and his red headed wife Susan.
Living in a shipping BOX behind the hangar at Biggin.......and then upgraded to a Range Rover.
A classic gentleman if ever there was a face of Biggin after Jock, it has to beCoby.
Now his would be a good story.... glf
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"The Germans would never have got past the Royal Navy"
Ahh yes - the same Royal Navy that was unable to stop the invasion of Norway, Crete, Java & Malaya due to lack of air cover
Any WW2 naval ship was sitting duck without air cover
Ahh yes - the same Royal Navy that was unable to stop the invasion of Norway, Crete, Java & Malaya due to lack of air cover
Any WW2 naval ship was sitting duck without air cover
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Not in 1940. At that time the Luftwaffe had very poor anti-ship training - as the lack of success at Dunkirk demonstrated. (Later, of course, the Germans performed well with the VIII Fliegerkorps being especially successful around Crete.) Additionally, given the confined waters of the Channel, the ludicrous plans that the Germans had for the landings - they were to tow Rhine barges across which had such a low free board that a destroyer would have been able to sink the thing with its wash without firing a shot, together with the fact that at night the RN would have been able to operate at leisure - the KM at that point due to the losses in Norway had damn all surface ships with which to interdict the RN.
Anyway it's all academic. The RN would have defeated Sea Lion; the RAF stopped from from even trying.
Anyway it's all academic. The RN would have defeated Sea Lion; the RAF stopped from from even trying.
'The RN would have defeated Sea Lion; the RAF stopped from from even trying'
An interesting point. Given the interwar focus on 'bull' and the whitewashing of inadequacy after Jutland, the RN may have struggled. Rate of fire (which was measurable and enabled Captains/gunnery officers to progress through the ranks...) was placed higher than accuracy - a weakness cruelly exposed by the Bismarck and Prince Eugen in 1941. Additionally, who's to say that a refreshed, victorious, Luftwaffe would not have done significant damage to any RN sortie into the channel? Perhaps Repulse and PoW would be sitting on the floor of the Channel instead of off the coast of Malaya?
One thing is for certain, without air cover and with a U-Boat / E-Boat screen the RN would have taken heavy losses attempting to repel a German assault - at what stage would it have been a strategic decision to preserve the remnants of the fleet to continue the fight from the Dominions? The proposed landing beaches near Brighton would have been used to land an initial wave (though challenging due to a lack of specialist craft) and the plan would have been to capture Shoreham/Newhaven as soon as possible.
Back on Thread. The Spitfire/Hurricane et al combo saved us from finding out if the RN could have closed the Channel; for the rest of the war I pick the T6 for being the machine which prepared the crews for frontline types and the C47; much like the CH47 today, an unglamourous but vital aircraft. In all Theatres in several roles the C47 delivered.
But the Mosquito is beautiful....and looks do go a long way!!!
An interesting point. Given the interwar focus on 'bull' and the whitewashing of inadequacy after Jutland, the RN may have struggled. Rate of fire (which was measurable and enabled Captains/gunnery officers to progress through the ranks...) was placed higher than accuracy - a weakness cruelly exposed by the Bismarck and Prince Eugen in 1941. Additionally, who's to say that a refreshed, victorious, Luftwaffe would not have done significant damage to any RN sortie into the channel? Perhaps Repulse and PoW would be sitting on the floor of the Channel instead of off the coast of Malaya?
One thing is for certain, without air cover and with a U-Boat / E-Boat screen the RN would have taken heavy losses attempting to repel a German assault - at what stage would it have been a strategic decision to preserve the remnants of the fleet to continue the fight from the Dominions? The proposed landing beaches near Brighton would have been used to land an initial wave (though challenging due to a lack of specialist craft) and the plan would have been to capture Shoreham/Newhaven as soon as possible.
Back on Thread. The Spitfire/Hurricane et al combo saved us from finding out if the RN could have closed the Channel; for the rest of the war I pick the T6 for being the machine which prepared the crews for frontline types and the C47; much like the CH47 today, an unglamourous but vital aircraft. In all Theatres in several roles the C47 delivered.
But the Mosquito is beautiful....and looks do go a long way!!!
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"At that time the Luftwaffe had very poor anti-ship training"
Norway 1940...... In addition to the other losses, the cruiser Effingham was wrecked and the anti-aircraft cruiser Curlew bombed and sunk near Narvik, while a French cruiser was seriously damaged. A total of seven British destroyers was lost, plus one French and one Polish.
We were bloody lucky they weren't properly trained then....
Norway 1940...... In addition to the other losses, the cruiser Effingham was wrecked and the anti-aircraft cruiser Curlew bombed and sunk near Narvik, while a French cruiser was seriously damaged. A total of seven British destroyers was lost, plus one French and one Polish.
We were bloody lucky they weren't properly trained then....
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U-Boats in the confined, shallow waters of the Channel would have found operating a nightmare - if not suicidal; the RN would have probably left the heavy ships in Scapa anyway, relying on the light forces based around the east & south coasts. Harwich, for example, in the summer of 1940 was home to a destroyer flotilla as well as light forces (it was the largest light forces base) who would have been on the scene within a few hours. What I am not saying is that it would have been easy for the RN - it wouldn't but given the circumstances I suspect that Sea Lion would have been a catastrophic defeat for the German.
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At the Underground Propaganda Committee meeting on Friday, 27 September 1940 probably the most famous and wide reaching rumour of the war was submitted. The essence of the rumour was that Britain had a secret weapon which could set the sea on fire, engulfing enemy invading barges on their cross Channel trip. The text of the actual rumour is more explicit:
The British have a new weapon. It is a mine to be dropped from aircraft. In distinction from other mines, however, it does not explode, but spreads a very thin film of highly inflammable and volatile liquid over the surface of the water for an enormous area. The mine's further action then ignites this liquid provoking a terrible flame.
The British have a new weapon. It is a mine to be dropped from aircraft. In distinction from other mines, however, it does not explode, but spreads a very thin film of highly inflammable and volatile liquid over the surface of the water for an enormous area. The mine's further action then ignites this liquid provoking a terrible flame.
The above extract from the book 'Whispers of War'