Why £4,000,000?
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Why £4,000,000?
I'm intrigued by the current published figure of £4,000,000 to train an RAF pilot. While the impressive quality of the end result is not in debate, this contrasts greatly with the approximately £120,000 including VAT to train a commercial pilot to the level he can operate revenue flights on a 737 or A320. I accept these figures are not strictly comparable since airline line training continues on revenue flights but this still seems a gigantic discrepancy particularly since so much (most) of the current RAF inventory (tristar, VC10, herc, sentry, sentinel, A330, Puma, Chinook, Sea King, E3/RC135)are all widely used in commercial service by companies which dont have an entire training budget of £4million, never mind for one pilot.
One possible clue was an article on tristar in RAF yearbook which spoke of "the training ship". How many airlines could set aside an airframe just for training. How widely used are simulators? I'm aware some may try to turn this into a mil vs civvie thread which isn't the intention. Standing by for deportation to jet blast!
One possible clue was an article on tristar in RAF yearbook which spoke of "the training ship". How many airlines could set aside an airframe just for training. How widely used are simulators? I'm aware some may try to turn this into a mil vs civvie thread which isn't the intention. Standing by for deportation to jet blast!
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I imagine if you take the total cost of the the entire training organization including property and factoring in aircraft replacement costs etc by the number of pilots trained you'd get a figure something like that.
When I was training in the '80s they told us we owed the RN half a Million by the end of it.
Bear in mind that civvy training doesn't maintain multiple entire airfields plus gigantic offices in central London staffed by hundreds just to train a couple of dozen pilots per year...(OK - tongue in cheek figures, but you get the point)
When I was training in the '80s they told us we owed the RN half a Million by the end of it.
Bear in mind that civvy training doesn't maintain multiple entire airfields plus gigantic offices in central London staffed by hundreds just to train a couple of dozen pilots per year...(OK - tongue in cheek figures, but you get the point)
It always costs more in the public sector!
Mil pilots are taught by demonstration, feedback and practice!
Civi pilots are given the books, no demonstration and little practice!
Mil pilots take the aircraft to the limits both in training and during their operational work.
Civi pilots never expect to take the aircraft to the limits. Indeed they are taught to avoid the limits at all cost!
Therefore it costs more to train a mil pilot!
Now preparing for incomers!! Flack jacket and tin hat on!!
Mil pilots are taught by demonstration, feedback and practice!
Civi pilots are given the books, no demonstration and little practice!
Mil pilots take the aircraft to the limits both in training and during their operational work.
Civi pilots never expect to take the aircraft to the limits. Indeed they are taught to avoid the limits at all cost!
Therefore it costs more to train a mil pilot!
Now preparing for incomers!! Flack jacket and tin hat on!!
Shot,
I'll have a go, but be prepared for corrective fire!
1. The £4m is probably a blanket cost covering advertising, testing, recruitment and all elements of training. Not just for the individual concerned, but also for all those from the Recruiters, maintainers, ATC, Fire crews etc up to his/her instructor amortised over the number of students that are trained - ie, not a lot at the moment. Factor in the cost of keeping Cranwell, Linton, Shawbury and Valley open with a small throughput the costs can escalate quickly!
2. Does it include trg all the way to Combat Ready? To end of OCU? To Wings? Massive differences depending on what you're measuring to....
3. Sims are used widely in the training system - approx half the hours on my CH47 refresh were in the Sim. I believe F35 will be even more 'synthetic'.
4. Not sure what the 'training ship' is. There's no such thing in RW or FJ as far as I'm aware - cabs are shared with the FL.
5. Your £120k produces a very green co-pilot who might barely be trusted to handle the aircraft, possibly a 'third pilot' for the cruise in larger airlines. The product from a RAF RW/FJ OCU is a LCR captain, and can (should) be trusted to command the aircraft (under a suitable auth/supervisory chain) from day one. ME still have the knickers in a twist over this mind you
6. Your £120k produces a competent product for take off, landing, cruise and procedural IF. The RAF product needs to be able to do all that in formation, at low level and in a diverse threat environment. That costs big bucks. Someone once told me that flying was easy, operating is the hard bit....
Hope that helps a bit?
I'll have a go, but be prepared for corrective fire!
1. The £4m is probably a blanket cost covering advertising, testing, recruitment and all elements of training. Not just for the individual concerned, but also for all those from the Recruiters, maintainers, ATC, Fire crews etc up to his/her instructor amortised over the number of students that are trained - ie, not a lot at the moment. Factor in the cost of keeping Cranwell, Linton, Shawbury and Valley open with a small throughput the costs can escalate quickly!
2. Does it include trg all the way to Combat Ready? To end of OCU? To Wings? Massive differences depending on what you're measuring to....
3. Sims are used widely in the training system - approx half the hours on my CH47 refresh were in the Sim. I believe F35 will be even more 'synthetic'.
4. Not sure what the 'training ship' is. There's no such thing in RW or FJ as far as I'm aware - cabs are shared with the FL.
5. Your £120k produces a very green co-pilot who might barely be trusted to handle the aircraft, possibly a 'third pilot' for the cruise in larger airlines. The product from a RAF RW/FJ OCU is a LCR captain, and can (should) be trusted to command the aircraft (under a suitable auth/supervisory chain) from day one. ME still have the knickers in a twist over this mind you
6. Your £120k produces a competent product for take off, landing, cruise and procedural IF. The RAF product needs to be able to do all that in formation, at low level and in a diverse threat environment. That costs big bucks. Someone once told me that flying was easy, operating is the hard bit....
Hope that helps a bit?
to train a commercial pilot to the level he can operate revenue flights on a 737 or A320
You are trying to compare apples with oranges.
The £4M figure you quote is probably for a single seat fast jet pilot. The MOD also quote 300hrs to fully qualify as a fast jet pilot. That's about £13,000 per hour. Seems quite reasonable to me!
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In terms of the cost of the airfield, landing fees, nav charges, regulatory fees, CAA licence issue fees, etc, plus VAT of course, every penny of that has to come out of the £120,000 I quoted. As for the "big office in London"....well!,
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The RAF product needs to be able to do all that in formation, at low level and in a diverse threat environment
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This may help;
Ministry of Defence: Training New Pilots | National Audit OfficeNational Audit Office
Etc etc, more info via the link.
Ministry of Defence: Training New Pilots | National Audit OfficeNational Audit Office
the Department’s costing systems do not readily identify the costs of pilot training and the National Audit Office analysed the available data to show the indicative costs. They estimated the overall cost of initial pilot training in 1998-99 to be some £280 million, with operational training an additional cost. Fast jet training is the most expensive type of training. It costs some £3.8 million to train a fast jet pilot prior to operational training, with a further £1.9 million for the cost of an operational training course. The cost of training flying instructors was the largest single component making up 30 per cent of cost. Wastage among trainees, the need to fly more hours than planned, and delays in moving trainees through the system contributed 27 per cent of cost;
The quality of the Instructors is a huge but necessary cost.
If you have 200 hrs and are learning for a CPL, you may well be taught by a guy with 300 hrs and an instructor licence who is hours building for an ATPL. Nothing wrong with that; but if you are a 200 hrs student in the RAF, you are doing low level bad weather formation and a 300 hr civvy instructor would just get you both killed.
If you have 200 hrs and are learning for a CPL, you may well be taught by a guy with 300 hrs and an instructor licence who is hours building for an ATPL. Nothing wrong with that; but if you are a 200 hrs student in the RAF, you are doing low level bad weather formation and a 300 hr civvy instructor would just get you both killed.
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One of the differences is in the civilian world the likes of a C152 PA-28 costs about £130 per hour, then as they progress to becoming instructors they are working for a living and building hours for free, they may then go onto a Twin with a company and again be paid a derisory sum as they continue building Multi hours and Multi Crew Experience.
This will all be funded by the Pilots, HIS PPL.. IR.. CPL... frozen ATPL etc
the majority of his hours he is in effect building for free as he is being paid a low wage whilst doing this, Schools etc, know they can pay lower as the people need the hours. It is only when they get on Airlines it is funded, though they are often tied in by contract to cover those costs, however some instructors tend to pay for the likes of a 737 rating as it increases their employement prospects.
Cessna 152 PA28 as said £130-150 ish
A twin such as a Seneca £370.00 ish
Hawk 2011
Hawk TI/TIA Estimated cost per hour (figures rounded) (£)
Hawk (RAF Training on 100 Squadron, 19 (Reserve) and 208 (Reserve) Squadrons) 10,000
Hawk (Royal Navy) 7,000
Hawk (Royal Air Force Aerobatics Team) 6,000
The operating cost for RAF Hawk training aircraft on 100, 19 (Reserve) and 208 (Reserve) Squadrons includes elements for simulators and other training infrastructure.
Parliamentary Answers - to 4th march 2011 | Think Defence
Big difference in costs, especially as the Students in the RAF are not self funding..
This will all be funded by the Pilots, HIS PPL.. IR.. CPL... frozen ATPL etc
the majority of his hours he is in effect building for free as he is being paid a low wage whilst doing this, Schools etc, know they can pay lower as the people need the hours. It is only when they get on Airlines it is funded, though they are often tied in by contract to cover those costs, however some instructors tend to pay for the likes of a 737 rating as it increases their employement prospects.
Cessna 152 PA28 as said £130-150 ish
A twin such as a Seneca £370.00 ish
Hawk 2011
Hawk TI/TIA Estimated cost per hour (figures rounded) (£)
Hawk (RAF Training on 100 Squadron, 19 (Reserve) and 208 (Reserve) Squadrons) 10,000
Hawk (Royal Navy) 7,000
Hawk (Royal Air Force Aerobatics Team) 6,000
The operating cost for RAF Hawk training aircraft on 100, 19 (Reserve) and 208 (Reserve) Squadrons includes elements for simulators and other training infrastructure.
Parliamentary Answers - to 4th march 2011 | Think Defence
Big difference in costs, especially as the Students in the RAF are not self funding..
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Some really helpful posts, thank you. Nutloose I agree the airline training system is to a large degree (unfairly IMHO) subsidised by trainee pilots. Id be interested to know how they come to £10,000/hr to operate a hawk, when this is considerably in excess of the cost of a B737 including handling, two pilots and cabin crew, fuel, nav charges and landing fees?
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You'll need to add the capital depreciation, and other related financing costs, + the costs of all of the airline infrastructure including groundcrew, dispatchers, operations staff etc. The direct comparision should all airline operating expenses/total aircraft hours flown per annum. MOD publishes full and marginal costs per flying hour. The marginal cost are around 10% of full cost.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
As Evalu8ter says in point 2 above;
At the end of of CPL/ATPL training the candidate can fly the appropriate aircraft to the required standard and operate it safely in a commercial environment. That happens about 2/3rds of the way through military training. After that the candidate has to learn to fight the aircraft in its mission role - safe operation of the aircraft is the baseline assumption beyond this point, everything else is about delivering the mission.
Also note that not even the MoD has a requirement to make a profit on delivering death and destruction, so 4 million quid gets you the very best in training and equipment. If it was being done for a profit that number would fall, along with the quality of the training provided. PFI anybody?
2. Does it include trg all the way to Combat Ready? To end of OCU? To Wings? Massive differences depending on what you're measuring to....
Also note that not even the MoD has a requirement to make a profit on delivering death and destruction, so 4 million quid gets you the very best in training and equipment. If it was being done for a profit that number would fall, along with the quality of the training provided. PFI anybody?
B737's don't pull 8'g'. Hawks aren't supposed to pull 8 'g' either, but that's student pilots for you!
Seriously, the RAF aircraft are being pushed to the limits most of the time, which means they need checking and fixing a lot more often, by more trades. I doubt you need armourers for a B737.
A good Air Force is, of course, still a very cheap opportunity cost. Saddam spent an awful lot on MiGs, Mirages and T-72s, but it did him f-all good. Not to mention the insurance of peace. Peacekeeping is expensive, but the cost of war is astronomical.
Seriously, the RAF aircraft are being pushed to the limits most of the time, which means they need checking and fixing a lot more often, by more trades. I doubt you need armourers for a B737.
A good Air Force is, of course, still a very cheap opportunity cost. Saddam spent an awful lot on MiGs, Mirages and T-72s, but it did him f-all good. Not to mention the insurance of peace. Peacekeeping is expensive, but the cost of war is astronomical.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The costs probably start from that Ad in the newspapers and finishes not necessarily at LCR but at 6-months post-OCU with possibly additional costs should LCR etc extend beyond 6 months.
Remember also that time holding is also part of the bill.
Furthermore the overhead costs per pilot will increase as the number of pilots passing through the system falls.
Remember also that time holding is also part of the bill.
Furthermore the overhead costs per pilot will increase as the number of pilots passing through the system falls.
Don't forget chaps that whilst factoring in all the personnel, Admin, engineering etc etc, who support the training of these expensive pilots, we must include all pay and expenses from the PM down. After that quite simple. Add all together, devide by number of pilots trained and blame it all on the pilots. Sorry, I know it's banter, but 
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Last edited by smujsmith; 5th Jul 2013 at 21:32.