Sh*fted!!
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Sh*fted!!
For the past two years I have been in the process of applying to be a pilot in the RN. I took the Flying Aptitude Tests last June, and the AIB in July - I didn't perform well at either and didn't get through. For the past year I have been working hard to address the weak areas that both these assessments turned up, especially my co-ordination, maths and leadership skills, in addition to doing 75 hours of flying training.
Last Thursday I received a letter from the AIB telling me that they can only offer me Air Traffic Control, and they won't allow me to retake the Flying Aptitude Tests. Whilst I concede that I have no recollection of being told at my previous attempt that I would definitely be eligible to retake the Aptitude Tests, it was also never mentioned that there was a possibility that this would not be allowed. Indeed I was told at the time that I would have a limit of two attempts, and that there must be a minimum period of one year before being allowed to re-test. I light of this, I assumed (not unreasonably, in my opinion) that there would not be an issue about whether or not I would be allowed to re-test. At no time was I made aware that my previous test scores would be taken into account and may prevent me from retaking the test.
One of the issues I have raised with the Officer Entry Section at Sultan, since receiving the letter, was the fact that by June I will have gained around 100 to 110 hours flying time - at present my total is around 75 hours. Although I am not so naive to think that having a Private Pilot Licence ensures that I would be able to fly a military aircraft (as was suggested in my telephone conversation with someone at the OES), I am confident that this has contributed to my abilities, along with other skills that I have worked very hard to improve over the past year, to the extent that I would be able to significantly improve my scores on the Aptitude Tests. If I achieved a notable improvement in my scores, wouldn't that demonstrate that I can endure a steep learning curve?
Another factor quoted by the OES, as affecting the decision to refuse me a retest, is my age. Surely this is not too difficult a factor to forecast. I don't object to my age being taken into account in my application in general; in fact I had been made aware that this may present a problem from the outset. However, if my age could prevent me from being allowed to retake the tests, I should have been made aware of that fact.
Equally, I have no objection to the result if I do not reach the required standards in the Aptitude Test, or the AIB. In contrast, I feel that this decision is denying me the opportunity to prove myself, and demonstrate that I have improved my abilities over the past year to match my ambition. After all, they've made such a fuss about not having enough pilots (which isn't a great surprise if they refuse people before they've even proved themselves!)...
Does anyone have any advice, or should just accept that the RN is going to stop me retaking the tests whatever I say?
AB
Last Thursday I received a letter from the AIB telling me that they can only offer me Air Traffic Control, and they won't allow me to retake the Flying Aptitude Tests. Whilst I concede that I have no recollection of being told at my previous attempt that I would definitely be eligible to retake the Aptitude Tests, it was also never mentioned that there was a possibility that this would not be allowed. Indeed I was told at the time that I would have a limit of two attempts, and that there must be a minimum period of one year before being allowed to re-test. I light of this, I assumed (not unreasonably, in my opinion) that there would not be an issue about whether or not I would be allowed to re-test. At no time was I made aware that my previous test scores would be taken into account and may prevent me from retaking the test.
One of the issues I have raised with the Officer Entry Section at Sultan, since receiving the letter, was the fact that by June I will have gained around 100 to 110 hours flying time - at present my total is around 75 hours. Although I am not so naive to think that having a Private Pilot Licence ensures that I would be able to fly a military aircraft (as was suggested in my telephone conversation with someone at the OES), I am confident that this has contributed to my abilities, along with other skills that I have worked very hard to improve over the past year, to the extent that I would be able to significantly improve my scores on the Aptitude Tests. If I achieved a notable improvement in my scores, wouldn't that demonstrate that I can endure a steep learning curve?
Another factor quoted by the OES, as affecting the decision to refuse me a retest, is my age. Surely this is not too difficult a factor to forecast. I don't object to my age being taken into account in my application in general; in fact I had been made aware that this may present a problem from the outset. However, if my age could prevent me from being allowed to retake the tests, I should have been made aware of that fact.
Equally, I have no objection to the result if I do not reach the required standards in the Aptitude Test, or the AIB. In contrast, I feel that this decision is denying me the opportunity to prove myself, and demonstrate that I have improved my abilities over the past year to match my ambition. After all, they've made such a fuss about not having enough pilots (which isn't a great surprise if they refuse people before they've even proved themselves!)...
Does anyone have any advice, or should just accept that the RN is going to stop me retaking the tests whatever I say?
AB
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Look get this in to your head....
In the words of Mick and the Stones. You can't always get what you want. Live with it and learn from it. A place of your own choosing in the RN or any other service is not your birth right no matter how right for it you consider yourself to be or how "on side" the Euro-lesbian Kangaroo Court of Political Correctness is.
Welcome to real life on Planet Earth.
At risk of sounding like an old fart, when I left full time education I was aware of the need to have more than one egg in the basket until at least one of them hatched. At the same time as applying to the RAF I had applications in for civvy police, BT, British Gas, and even the BBC as a trainee news cameraman, and once accepted by the Air Force I then had four trade/branch options.
Doggedly pursuing one path which is so obviously strewn with cowpats is a slippery slope. You can be as enthusiastic as you like and yes, it can be desperately depressing when you have to take your second choice but remember:
Winners never quit, quitters never win, but those who never win and never quit are wasting their time.
And even if you DO convince them you've been treated unreasonably and get a place a Dartmouth to go on to what you think is right for you, you'll be remembered as the guy/girl who got there by whinging as opposed to being the right person for the role.
Sorry if I sound overly harsh but to be blunt I (and I doubt I am alone on this) am growing increasingly weary of young wannabes complaining that they are being overlooked and that the Navy/Air Force/Army is ignorant.
It is "their" train set. If they don't want you to play, then so be it. If you turn out to be the next Frank Whittle or Buzz Lightyear, it's not you who will have lost out is it? If you really are so good that the MOD is missing the sale of the century, someone else will put you to good use and pay you accordingly.
PS. I was meant to be the next James Bond. Those fags at EON are idiots.
In the words of Mick and the Stones. You can't always get what you want. Live with it and learn from it. A place of your own choosing in the RN or any other service is not your birth right no matter how right for it you consider yourself to be or how "on side" the Euro-lesbian Kangaroo Court of Political Correctness is.
Welcome to real life on Planet Earth.
At risk of sounding like an old fart, when I left full time education I was aware of the need to have more than one egg in the basket until at least one of them hatched. At the same time as applying to the RAF I had applications in for civvy police, BT, British Gas, and even the BBC as a trainee news cameraman, and once accepted by the Air Force I then had four trade/branch options.
Doggedly pursuing one path which is so obviously strewn with cowpats is a slippery slope. You can be as enthusiastic as you like and yes, it can be desperately depressing when you have to take your second choice but remember:
Winners never quit, quitters never win, but those who never win and never quit are wasting their time.
And even if you DO convince them you've been treated unreasonably and get a place a Dartmouth to go on to what you think is right for you, you'll be remembered as the guy/girl who got there by whinging as opposed to being the right person for the role.
Sorry if I sound overly harsh but to be blunt I (and I doubt I am alone on this) am growing increasingly weary of young wannabes complaining that they are being overlooked and that the Navy/Air Force/Army is ignorant.
It is "their" train set. If they don't want you to play, then so be it. If you turn out to be the next Frank Whittle or Buzz Lightyear, it's not you who will have lost out is it? If you really are so good that the MOD is missing the sale of the century, someone else will put you to good use and pay you accordingly.
PS. I was meant to be the next James Bond. Those fags at EON are idiots.
Last edited by Talking Radalt; 1st May 2002 at 00:45.
Can't believe I'm going to say this but here goes - I agree with what most of Ralt says.
However I will say that if you were led to believe that you could have another shot at it and subsequently spent a lot of money in improving your chances by civvie flying, well, that's a bit unfortunate to say the least.
However I will say that if you were led to believe that you could have another shot at it and subsequently spent a lot of money in improving your chances by civvie flying, well, that's a bit unfortunate to say the least.
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Go down to Australia House, tell them you want to join up, RAAF or RAN, you just want to Immigrate and fly Military, don't mention your previous attempt at selection, see how it goes, (competition for flying places in the Australian forces is extremely high).
Step 2. Be prepared to re-locate to Australia.
On the down side, it is possible that your scores previously were such that, combined with your age, Those That Know don't think you will make it within budget, even if you do pass selection at a second attempt.
And you haven't been shafted, just disappointed!
Step 2. Be prepared to re-locate to Australia.
On the down side, it is possible that your scores previously were such that, combined with your age, Those That Know don't think you will make it within budget, even if you do pass selection at a second attempt.
And you haven't been shafted, just disappointed!
Last edited by G.Khan; 1st May 2002 at 10:31.
Crazy as it may seem, we have fairly stringent testing in Australia too, probably pretty similar to what he or she has already been through.
Not all that impressed with the 'don't tell them about your previous attempts' idea, either. If you can't get in without being honest, then you're not off to a real good start, are you?
Not all that impressed with the 'don't tell them about your previous attempts' idea, either. If you can't get in without being honest, then you're not off to a real good start, are you?
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'Disappointed' is a polite word for 'shafted'
Radalt,
I think this is missing the issue to an extent.
I had no illusions about the limited chances of becoming a WAFU and I have always had plan B (accompanied by a plan C, D, E, X, Y and Z). However, after taking the advice I was given by my Liaison Officer and at my previous AIB on improving my suitability and reapplying, and working very hard to do so (in addition to outlaying not inconsiderable personal funds in the process), I think I'm entitled to be a little p*ssed off at being told I won't even be assessed. And through my contact with the RN in various areas (including being a member of the RNR) there seems to be a lot of 'right-hand-not-knowing-what-the-left-hand-is-doing' syndrome around...
I know I didn't perform at my best in the tests first time around (combination of nerves/lack of sleep and simply having an 'off' day), but that's not an excuse - just a **** up on my part... I'm confident that if I did get to Dartmouth, I would do so because I had had the chance to prove myself as being right for the role. If I hadn't got through the assessment process, so be it. And if the RN doesn't want to give me that chance, it's their loss.
I'll just have to go and slip on cowpats elsewhere...
AB the Farmer
PS- Got to admit that the thought of flying for the RAN or RAAF is very appealing (and it was originally one of my other eggs in the basket), but I can't help thinking my chances are even slimmer, and time keeps marching on!
In the words of Mick and the Stones. You can't always get what you want. Live with it and learn from it. A place of your own choosing in the RN or any other service is not your birth right no matter how right for it you consider yourself to be or how "on side" the Euro-lesbian Kangaroo Court of Political Correctness is. Welcome to real life on Planet Earth.
I had no illusions about the limited chances of becoming a WAFU and I have always had plan B (accompanied by a plan C, D, E, X, Y and Z). However, after taking the advice I was given by my Liaison Officer and at my previous AIB on improving my suitability and reapplying, and working very hard to do so (in addition to outlaying not inconsiderable personal funds in the process), I think I'm entitled to be a little p*ssed off at being told I won't even be assessed. And through my contact with the RN in various areas (including being a member of the RNR) there seems to be a lot of 'right-hand-not-knowing-what-the-left-hand-is-doing' syndrome around...
I know I didn't perform at my best in the tests first time around (combination of nerves/lack of sleep and simply having an 'off' day), but that's not an excuse - just a **** up on my part... I'm confident that if I did get to Dartmouth, I would do so because I had had the chance to prove myself as being right for the role. If I hadn't got through the assessment process, so be it. And if the RN doesn't want to give me that chance, it's their loss.
I'll just have to go and slip on cowpats elsewhere...
AB the Farmer
PS- Got to admit that the thought of flying for the RAN or RAAF is very appealing (and it was originally one of my other eggs in the basket), but I can't help thinking my chances are even slimmer, and time keeps marching on!
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Yes by all means try the RAAF or the RAN.
Whingers are not looked upon kindly by the Australians in general however, and be careful to present a more positive attitude.
Don't try the Australian army Aviation mate, you do sound like a bit of a poof ......
Stop ya whining and plug on mate
Hey arm out the window ...... drop me a line will ya?
Whingers are not looked upon kindly by the Australians in general however, and be careful to present a more positive attitude.
Don't try the Australian army Aviation mate, you do sound like a bit of a poof ......
Stop ya whining and plug on mate
Hey arm out the window ...... drop me a line will ya?
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you expect me to rise to that?
how old are you; 12?
By the way, the British forces officially don't have a problem with poofs anymore... something to do with human rights, or some b*llocks like that! Good to see the Aussies aren't bothering with all that nonsense.
Thanks for the tips though.
Last edited by AeroBatfink; 1st May 2002 at 13:38.
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Fink;
"I know I didn't perform at my best in the tests first time around (combination of nerves/lack of sleep and simply having an 'off' day), but that's not an excuse - just a **** up on my part"
Lack of sleep? An "off day"? And you then accuse Chinny of being 12! Sounds like it's you who should stick to orange squash! If you couldn't deliver the goods in the innocuous, warm touchy-feely interview /aptitude test, (even if you were still pissed from the night before) what chance do you really stand at 30 000' ? And as for being entitled to an explanation and all that, I'll bear that in mind next time I've sat on an aircraft at an FOB in down town Armargh waiting for the off, only to be stood down with out so much as a thank you.
And since I've had a pretty crap day at work I'll go the whole hog and say, why don't you get a t-shirt printed that says "I'm special, me!"
Like I said, welcome to real life.
Bing! Idea: Why not write to the BBC with an idea for a new reality game show called "Candidates" where a group of self-important wannabes go through mock selection on national TV?
Finally, Chinook mate, I know you're not 12, you're an old f***in' fart, mate!
"I know I didn't perform at my best in the tests first time around (combination of nerves/lack of sleep and simply having an 'off' day), but that's not an excuse - just a **** up on my part"
Lack of sleep? An "off day"? And you then accuse Chinny of being 12! Sounds like it's you who should stick to orange squash! If you couldn't deliver the goods in the innocuous, warm touchy-feely interview /aptitude test, (even if you were still pissed from the night before) what chance do you really stand at 30 000' ? And as for being entitled to an explanation and all that, I'll bear that in mind next time I've sat on an aircraft at an FOB in down town Armargh waiting for the off, only to be stood down with out so much as a thank you.
And since I've had a pretty crap day at work I'll go the whole hog and say, why don't you get a t-shirt printed that says "I'm special, me!"
Like I said, welcome to real life.
Bing! Idea: Why not write to the BBC with an idea for a new reality game show called "Candidates" where a group of self-important wannabes go through mock selection on national TV?
Finally, Chinook mate, I know you're not 12, you're an old f***in' fart, mate!
AeroBat
I understand where you are coming from. I failed the AIB last year and am having to join as a Tiffy.
Why not go for ATC? If that's rubbing your nose in it about not being able to fly, why not try another branch of the Navy, like the Warfare branch?
Still a Navy career and it will have much more in common with your original ambition that any civvy career.
Just a thought.....
I understand where you are coming from. I failed the AIB last year and am having to join as a Tiffy.
Why not go for ATC? If that's rubbing your nose in it about not being able to fly, why not try another branch of the Navy, like the Warfare branch?
Still a Navy career and it will have much more in common with your original ambition that any civvy career.
Just a thought.....
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 1st May 2002 at 23:12.
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A Misunderstanding
Sorry Arm Out the Window, I meant to imply that as places were hard to come by in Australian military aviation he wouldn't find it any easier than anything attempted already.
Not mentioning previous attempt, yes, perhaps not such a good idea after all, though it shouldn't make any difference to his ability to pass the tests, I would have thought.:o
Not mentioning previous attempt, yes, perhaps not such a good idea after all, though it shouldn't make any difference to his ability to pass the tests, I would have thought.:o
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Why don't we just leave this guy to keep throwing his rattle out of his pram and all buy shares in Fischer-Price. 
Or we could all claim the lottery jackpot on Saturday and kick up a stink when they won't let us have it despite not having the right numbers.
Seems to me that you think the RN owes you a living, it owes you nothing, just like any firm you apply to, you don't have a right to a job just because you had an interview. I think the guys who passed aptitude but came up too short/long on Anthro have a right to be disappointed but most of those i've met just chose another branch and got on with it.
It may not seem fair but life isn't, get that into your head and then maybe the big boys will let you play with them (no not literally you filthy lot, but offers on a postcard.......)
Or we could all claim the lottery jackpot on Saturday and kick up a stink when they won't let us have it despite not having the right numbers.
Seems to me that you think the RN owes you a living, it owes you nothing, just like any firm you apply to, you don't have a right to a job just because you had an interview. I think the guys who passed aptitude but came up too short/long on Anthro have a right to be disappointed but most of those i've met just chose another branch and got on with it.
It may not seem fair but life isn't, get that into your head and then maybe the big boys will let you play with them (no not literally you filthy lot, but offers on a postcard.......)
I see your point, G. Khan.
It was just the idea of lying before he or she's even got in the door that I found a bit, shall we say, Dodgey Brothers.
Also if the aptitude testing is any good, it should ideally not matter too much how much flying experience you've had before you attempt it as to how well you go.
I guess there might be some improvement in the scores obtained by, say, a commercial pilot as opposed to an absolute beginner, but I think it's been borne out numerous times in the past that when it comes to the more unusual parts of pilots course like low level TOT nav, form, etc. that those advantages disappear, and everyone's back to square one.
Still, there's no law against trying all avenues.
It was just the idea of lying before he or she's even got in the door that I found a bit, shall we say, Dodgey Brothers.
Also if the aptitude testing is any good, it should ideally not matter too much how much flying experience you've had before you attempt it as to how well you go.
I guess there might be some improvement in the scores obtained by, say, a commercial pilot as opposed to an absolute beginner, but I think it's been borne out numerous times in the past that when it comes to the more unusual parts of pilots course like low level TOT nav, form, etc. that those advantages disappear, and everyone's back to square one.
Still, there's no law against trying all avenues.
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Please do not misunderstand me, I have no problem with homosexuals and did not mean to imply our young friend was in any way queer.
I did wish to imply that he sounded like a whinging young man with a soft backbone and little guts .... aka in my neck of the woods, a poof!
I am an old fart, but the ladies seem to like me still so I guess I still know which way 'up' is huh?
I did wish to imply that he sounded like a whinging young man with a soft backbone and little guts .... aka in my neck of the woods, a poof!
I am an old fart, but the ladies seem to like me still so I guess I still know which way 'up' is huh?
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Chinook
I believe the first gay to out himself in the RAF was an RAAF exchange officer. ( Oz was, as usual, ahead of UK with Human Rights legislation). His boss and the Staish had apoplexy and MOD is alleged to have asked Oz House for his removal, but Oz said "no", that's our law, he stays.
I believe the first gay to out himself in the RAF was an RAAF exchange officer. ( Oz was, as usual, ahead of UK with Human Rights legislation). His boss and the Staish had apoplexy and MOD is alleged to have asked Oz House for his removal, but Oz said "no", that's our law, he stays.
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Seems almost criminal to me that an Oz can come out as a marmite miner, if this is the case not surprised all the great totty (Natalie Imbruglia, Kylie, Danni Minogue) etc cant wait to get away. Still if all the guys fancy each other, it means theres far more poontang left for those on the right bus!
Aero-back-slider, only a suggestion, wht not take your whining to the West Bromwich and district mothers Union, they're always game for a whinge
Aero-back-slider, only a suggestion, wht not take your whining to the West Bromwich and district mothers Union, they're always game for a whinge
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Not sure what an Aerobatfink is but anyway: Aptitude tests are not studied for, they are inherent qualities of individuals. It is unlikely you had a bad day but more likely that the tests showed you were unsuitable for the role. That said, try again, bleat make a pain in the ass of yourself. It really can't hurt, what have you got to lose. The other tack is to get into the Navy and then try for a Branch change, a risky strategy but possible.
If that doesn't work go Civvy and although you won't be able to regale (sp?) the hosties with deeds of deering do, you will be able to smile brightly at the ex-navy mate in the right hand seat, that is 5 years older than you and earning half as much. It will be fun to watch him bantering the girls who are of course all desperate to shag a bald, grey old git whose hair got rubbed off by a 10b. (Note to self, break the mirror!)
I had snags getting GD(P) for medical reasons. I had passed all the aptitude tests though. I joined had a nose op done and was on my way. At every turn I asked myself 'What is the worst that can happen?' 'I might not get a fast jet seat; sh*t, I haven't got one now anyway.' The point is you have nothing to lose and all to gain so try your best but if it doesn't work out go civvy coz that is where you will probably end up in 16 years time anyway. Ok, the dream has been extinguished but you can buy some very nice dreams on 70k/year in a few years time.
Ghost
If that doesn't work go Civvy and although you won't be able to regale (sp?) the hosties with deeds of deering do, you will be able to smile brightly at the ex-navy mate in the right hand seat, that is 5 years older than you and earning half as much. It will be fun to watch him bantering the girls who are of course all desperate to shag a bald, grey old git whose hair got rubbed off by a 10b. (Note to self, break the mirror!)
I had snags getting GD(P) for medical reasons. I had passed all the aptitude tests though. I joined had a nose op done and was on my way. At every turn I asked myself 'What is the worst that can happen?' 'I might not get a fast jet seat; sh*t, I haven't got one now anyway.' The point is you have nothing to lose and all to gain so try your best but if it doesn't work out go civvy coz that is where you will probably end up in 16 years time anyway. Ok, the dream has been extinguished but you can buy some very nice dreams on 70k/year in a few years time.
Ghost
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Aero, just take the commission, you may get a chance to re-muster as a young god, further down your career. Work extremely hard and diligently, cadge flights in everything with wings on, let it be known, that your true vocation is as a "Fangs-Out" aviator, and who knows. I'm not saying in todays day and age, it's a certainty, but at least it should be considered, as Plan B(1)
Don't FFS do what I did, which was, after being told I wasn't suitable to be an FJ mate, would I prefer to work in the Pickfords side of GD(Air), threw all my toys out of my pram, because all I wanted to fly was Jaguars or Tornados.
Which is how I ended up, cold , wet, ******ed about and fit
Tony
Don't FFS do what I did, which was, after being told I wasn't suitable to be an FJ mate, would I prefer to work in the Pickfords side of GD(Air), threw all my toys out of my pram, because all I wanted to fly was Jaguars or Tornados.
Which is how I ended up, cold , wet, ******ed about and fit
Tony