Warning on new aircraft carriers.
Amyas Morse, head of the National Audit Office, said: "It is good that the MoD acted promptly once it became clear that pursuing the option to buy the carrier variant aircraft would cost a lot more money and add another three years to the whole programme.
"But to achieve value for money in this project, the department will have to manage significant technical and affordability risks and be consistent in sticking to the present plan."
"But to achieve value for money in this project, the department will have to manage significant technical and affordability risks and be consistent in sticking to the present plan."
Can someone remind me of Mr Morse's previous job?
From Web Page on Public Sector Efficiency Expo
Amyas Morse was appointed Comptroller & Auditor General on 1 June 2009.
Amyas was born in Edinburgh, and is a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland. He led the Coopers & Lybrand practice in Scotland, before moving to London to manage the London City Office, and subsequently becoming the Executive Partner of the Coopers & Lybrand UK firm. When PricewaterhouseCoopers was formed, he took on global responsibilities, and served as Global Leader of the Assurance Practice (audit and related services), and then as Global Managing Partner (Operations).
Amyas joined the Ministry of Defence in July 2006 as the Defence Commercial Director. During his time as Commercial Director he was responsible for shaping the Department’s relationship with industry, and he played a key role in the agreement of strategic commercial arrangements. More widely across government, he served as a member of the Major Projects Review Group, the Public Sector Board of CIPS, and on an NHS Project Board.
Amyas Morse was appointed Comptroller & Auditor General on 1 June 2009.
Amyas was born in Edinburgh, and is a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland. He led the Coopers & Lybrand practice in Scotland, before moving to London to manage the London City Office, and subsequently becoming the Executive Partner of the Coopers & Lybrand UK firm. When PricewaterhouseCoopers was formed, he took on global responsibilities, and served as Global Leader of the Assurance Practice (audit and related services), and then as Global Managing Partner (Operations).
Amyas joined the Ministry of Defence in July 2006 as the Defence Commercial Director. During his time as Commercial Director he was responsible for shaping the Department’s relationship with industry, and he played a key role in the agreement of strategic commercial arrangements. More widely across government, he served as a member of the Major Projects Review Group, the Public Sector Board of CIPS, and on an NHS Project Board.
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Sorry to register just for this but I finally have had enough of the anti-carrier nonsense being posted here-
This is utterly amazing, it is truly astonishing that anything like this was said, in march the QE had only been fitted with the first of its MT30 turbines which hadn't even come out of its packaging, yet alone been tested as there would be nothing to test it with as none of the electric motors had been setup (installed only). The engines are set to be tested for the first time later this year once both of the MT30's are in and unwrapped and the ship has been fitted with braked propellers. As for the second being full of rain water that is considerably impressive as it only exists at the moment as bits inside warehouses around the country-
When you see it... forward island under construction at Portsmouth - and feathered friend! | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Those bits of grey scattered around... that's the second carrier.
All of the delays and cost increases in the project so far have come from one source, the government, first in delaying the main gate schedule, then changing the required specifications required at least 3 times. Production should have started around 4 years earlier then it ended up solely due to the government at the time deliberately slowing the project down to save money, an act that eventually cost us around £1 billion more.
Personally I think they should cancel the typhoon, a guy at the aircraft museum told me that the merlin engines were giving them no end of trouble and that the cockpit glass was actually made out of cheese and the pilots couldn't see out!
eaglemmoomin- The trouble the yanks are having with the LCS (or at least the engines the whole project is a running joke) is the shape of the exhaust funnels lets sea water into the turbine itself, on its own the MT30 is by all accounts a insanely reliably and efficient unit. After all despite each of the CVF's weighing as much as all three Invincibles combined each does better mileage.
I was told by a staff member in a military museum. The first carrier has endless issues about the engines. The second is a massive bath-tub containing rain water. That was this March.
When you see it... forward island under construction at Portsmouth - and feathered friend! | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Those bits of grey scattered around... that's the second carrier.
All of the delays and cost increases in the project so far have come from one source, the government, first in delaying the main gate schedule, then changing the required specifications required at least 3 times. Production should have started around 4 years earlier then it ended up solely due to the government at the time deliberately slowing the project down to save money, an act that eventually cost us around £1 billion more.
Personally I think they should cancel the typhoon, a guy at the aircraft museum told me that the merlin engines were giving them no end of trouble and that the cockpit glass was actually made out of cheese and the pilots couldn't see out!
eaglemmoomin- The trouble the yanks are having with the LCS (or at least the engines the whole project is a running joke) is the shape of the exhaust funnels lets sea water into the turbine itself, on its own the MT30 is by all accounts a insanely reliably and efficient unit. After all despite each of the CVF's weighing as much as all three Invincibles combined each does better mileage.
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Oh no ! A Beancounter !
What sort of name is Amyas Morse anyway?
Some sort of code?
Where are Kelly Johnson and Bill Lear when you need them?
They ate beancounters for breakfast.
tucumseh, interesting name that.
What sort of name is Amyas Morse anyway?
Some sort of code?
Where are Kelly Johnson and Bill Lear when you need them?
They ate beancounters for breakfast.
tucumseh, interesting name that.
Last edited by Stuffy; 25th May 2013 at 16:18.
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What sort of name is Amyas Morse anyway?
Some sort of code?
Some sort of code?
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Apposite K Johnson should come up, he had some rules apparently about the primacy of the contractor:
[QUOTE]The Skunk Works manager must be delegated practically complete control of his program in all aspects. He should report to a division president or higher.
Strong but small project offices must be provided both by the military and industry.
The number of people having any connection with the project must be restricted in an almost vicious manner. Use a small number of good people (10% to 25% compared to the so-called normal systems).
A very simple drawing and drawing release system with great flexibility for making changes must be provided.
There must be a minimum number of reports required, but important work must be recorded thoroughly.
There must be a monthly cost review covering not only what has been spent and committed but also projected costs to the conclusion of the program. Don't have the books 90 days late, and don't surprise the customer with sudden overruns.
The contractor must be delegated and must assume more than normal responsibility to get good vendor bids for subcontract on the project. Commercial bid procedures are very often better than military ones.
The inspection system as currently used by the Skunk Works, which has been approved by both the Air Force and Navy, meets the intent of existing military requirements and should be used on new projects. Push more basic inspection responsibility back to subcontractors and vendors. Don't duplicate so much inspection.
The contractor must be delegated the authority to test his final product in flight. He can and must test it in the initial stages. If he doesn't, he rapidly loses his competency to design other vehicles.
The specifications applying to the hardware must be agreed to well in advance of contracting. The Skunk Works practice of having a specification section stating clearly which important military specification items will not knowingly be complied with and reasons therefore is highly recommended.
Funding a program must be timely so that the contractor doesn't have to keep running to the bank to support government projects.
There must be mutual trust between the military project organization and the contractor with very close cooperation and liaison on a day-to-day basis. This cuts down misunderstanding and correspondence to an absolute minimum.
Access by outsiders to the project and its personnel must be strictly controlled by appropriate security measures.
Because only a few people will be used in engineering and most other areas, ways must be provided to reward good performance by pay not based on the number of personnel supervised.
Note that Kelly had a 15th rule that he passed on by word of mouth. According to the book "Skunk Works" the 15th rule is: "Starve before doing business with the damned Navy. They don't know what the hell they want and will drive you up a wall before they break either your heart or a more exposed part of your anatomy."[QUOTE]
In other words, tell your contractor what you want then keep your nose out until they deliver. My bolds for emphasis
[QUOTE]The Skunk Works manager must be delegated practically complete control of his program in all aspects. He should report to a division president or higher.
Strong but small project offices must be provided both by the military and industry.
The number of people having any connection with the project must be restricted in an almost vicious manner. Use a small number of good people (10% to 25% compared to the so-called normal systems).
A very simple drawing and drawing release system with great flexibility for making changes must be provided.
There must be a minimum number of reports required, but important work must be recorded thoroughly.
There must be a monthly cost review covering not only what has been spent and committed but also projected costs to the conclusion of the program. Don't have the books 90 days late, and don't surprise the customer with sudden overruns.
The contractor must be delegated and must assume more than normal responsibility to get good vendor bids for subcontract on the project. Commercial bid procedures are very often better than military ones.
The inspection system as currently used by the Skunk Works, which has been approved by both the Air Force and Navy, meets the intent of existing military requirements and should be used on new projects. Push more basic inspection responsibility back to subcontractors and vendors. Don't duplicate so much inspection.
The contractor must be delegated the authority to test his final product in flight. He can and must test it in the initial stages. If he doesn't, he rapidly loses his competency to design other vehicles.
The specifications applying to the hardware must be agreed to well in advance of contracting. The Skunk Works practice of having a specification section stating clearly which important military specification items will not knowingly be complied with and reasons therefore is highly recommended.
Funding a program must be timely so that the contractor doesn't have to keep running to the bank to support government projects.
There must be mutual trust between the military project organization and the contractor with very close cooperation and liaison on a day-to-day basis. This cuts down misunderstanding and correspondence to an absolute minimum.
Access by outsiders to the project and its personnel must be strictly controlled by appropriate security measures.
Because only a few people will be used in engineering and most other areas, ways must be provided to reward good performance by pay not based on the number of personnel supervised.
Note that Kelly had a 15th rule that he passed on by word of mouth. According to the book "Skunk Works" the 15th rule is: "Starve before doing business with the damned Navy. They don't know what the hell they want and will drive you up a wall before they break either your heart or a more exposed part of your anatomy."[QUOTE]
In other words, tell your contractor what you want then keep your nose out until they deliver. My bolds for emphasis
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He probably moved on from his previous job as an Inspector?
Well, I have knowledge of 5 languages.' Amyas', I do not recognise.
All is indeed lost, when a sense of humour is not there.
You cannot believe I chose the nickname of my hero?
The pseudonym 'Kitbag' would soon be turned into a less complimentary one in any British military mess hall. The ridicule would increase if you took offence, soon the label REMF would be attached. I understand the Australians would be even more cruel.
Clarence 'Kelly' Johnson did not have much time for accountants and business courses.Ref: Ben Rich's book.
Well, I have knowledge of 5 languages.' Amyas', I do not recognise.
All is indeed lost, when a sense of humour is not there.
You cannot believe I chose the nickname of my hero?
The pseudonym 'Kitbag' would soon be turned into a less complimentary one in any British military mess hall. The ridicule would increase if you took offence, soon the label REMF would be attached. I understand the Australians would be even more cruel.
Clarence 'Kelly' Johnson did not have much time for accountants and business courses.Ref: Ben Rich's book.
Last edited by Stuffy; 25th May 2013 at 23:22.
Originally Posted by Stuffy
Well, I have knowledge of 5 languages.' Amyas', I do not recognise.
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Amare - to love.
Or split; 'A mare' - to the sea.
Private Eye magazine has already spun the name to 'Morse Goaded'.
Private Eye In The Back: Morse goaded
Another reference: Elliot Gould's confrontation with Telly Savalas in the film Capricorn One.
Sorry chaps, I don't do 'PC'.
Or split; 'A mare' - to the sea.
Private Eye magazine has already spun the name to 'Morse Goaded'.
Private Eye In The Back: Morse goaded
Another reference: Elliot Gould's confrontation with Telly Savalas in the film Capricorn One.
Sorry chaps, I don't do 'PC'.
Last edited by Stuffy; 25th May 2013 at 23:45.
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RAG Rating Graphic
Curious about RAG rating found info here:
Project Assessment Review: MPA Guidance for Departments | Version 1.0 – March 2012
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...epartments.pdf (0.4Mb)
Click thumbnail pic for big pic:
Project Assessment Review: MPA Guidance for Departments | Version 1.0 – March 2012
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...epartments.pdf (0.4Mb)
Click thumbnail pic for big pic:
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 26th May 2013 at 00:49. Reason: Add URL
Kitbag, that is excellent stuff and all true, but with MoD falls at the first hurdle...
If by some chance an MoD project office is strong, senior management will almost certainly not tolerate such an attitude and will definitely not support you.
From my own perspective, matters changed in 1996, following the appointment of Sir Robert Walmsley as Chief of Defence Procurement. His first action of note was to announce he was cutting 500 engineer posts at AbbeyWood, e-mailing everyone on site that he saw no need for engineers working on engineering projects or programmes. (Thanks Bob, we’d all just been posted from London. You could have screwed us before upping sticks).
A major prime contractor on an aircraft programme was a thoroughly unscrupulous outfit who enjoyed the personal patronage of CDP. Their boss kept a little black book of the strengths and weaknesses of the MoD team. He soon approached a non-engineer saying “Could you just confirm we have a test and declare status?” The MoD guy hadn’t a clue what this meant; the company knew he’d never admit this and seek advice. He said “Of course”. A couple of years later and “aircraft installation, systems integration and demonstration of installed performance” consisted of the prime pitching up at Westland and dumping a truck load of LRUs on the hangar floor. “We tested them on the bench and we declare we can’t tell if some work properly as they haven’t been integrated or flown”. They were paid in full, approved by CDP and the 2 Star (Nimrod MRA4, Chinook HC Mk3 etc, which I mention just to illustrate the quality of decision making here), and a second payment approved for Westland to meet the Prime’s original obligation.
By the way, this attitude of “it works on the bench, so it’ll work on the aircraft” was a significant factor in the loss of Tornado ZG710, which the same 2 Star (DGAS2) was personally warned of 4 years before the accident.
Strong but small project offices must be provided both by the military and industry.
From my own perspective, matters changed in 1996, following the appointment of Sir Robert Walmsley as Chief of Defence Procurement. His first action of note was to announce he was cutting 500 engineer posts at AbbeyWood, e-mailing everyone on site that he saw no need for engineers working on engineering projects or programmes. (Thanks Bob, we’d all just been posted from London. You could have screwed us before upping sticks).
A major prime contractor on an aircraft programme was a thoroughly unscrupulous outfit who enjoyed the personal patronage of CDP. Their boss kept a little black book of the strengths and weaknesses of the MoD team. He soon approached a non-engineer saying “Could you just confirm we have a test and declare status?” The MoD guy hadn’t a clue what this meant; the company knew he’d never admit this and seek advice. He said “Of course”. A couple of years later and “aircraft installation, systems integration and demonstration of installed performance” consisted of the prime pitching up at Westland and dumping a truck load of LRUs on the hangar floor. “We tested them on the bench and we declare we can’t tell if some work properly as they haven’t been integrated or flown”. They were paid in full, approved by CDP and the 2 Star (Nimrod MRA4, Chinook HC Mk3 etc, which I mention just to illustrate the quality of decision making here), and a second payment approved for Westland to meet the Prime’s original obligation.
By the way, this attitude of “it works on the bench, so it’ll work on the aircraft” was a significant factor in the loss of Tornado ZG710, which the same 2 Star (DGAS2) was personally warned of 4 years before the accident.
Last edited by tucumseh; 26th May 2013 at 06:23.
I have no experience of the 'world' you worked in but let me assure you it sounds very very familiar to mine and it's the reason that this country has very little in the way of large software companies. Whatever competence there is at the technical end, it's completely let down at the second management level and up.
There is somehow no way for awful people to be weeded out and it's something to do with the way that idiots express no doubt about anything (especially any stupid plan of their superiors) and other people admire certainty.
It's the same in other places too e.g. big Finnish phone companies that have paid the price now very publicly. In the States, I think there have been so many big companies, so many startups etc that eventually some people have learned and become ok. Some deserving people are in the positions they should be and have hired other good people.
I don't know how a government is supposed to achieve the same effect though.
There is somehow no way for awful people to be weeded out and it's something to do with the way that idiots express no doubt about anything (especially any stupid plan of their superiors) and other people admire certainty.
It's the same in other places too e.g. big Finnish phone companies that have paid the price now very publicly. In the States, I think there have been so many big companies, so many startups etc that eventually some people have learned and become ok. Some deserving people are in the positions they should be and have hired other good people.
I don't know how a government is supposed to achieve the same effect though.
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tucumseh and t43562,
You have certainly hit the nail on the head for the reason for this thread.
A line in a BBC report has expanded into the reasons for getting so many things wrong.
I hope someone from the government/MPA reads your posts and 'tries' to make some changes?
Is this why the Nimrod had to be cancelled ?
RT had a news item on the Astute class of submarine last week.
A number of problems on that programme were highlighted.
Guess who pays for the mistakes?
You have certainly hit the nail on the head for the reason for this thread.
A line in a BBC report has expanded into the reasons for getting so many things wrong.
I hope someone from the government/MPA reads your posts and 'tries' to make some changes?
Is this why the Nimrod had to be cancelled ?
RT had a news item on the Astute class of submarine last week.
A number of problems on that programme were highlighted.
Guess who pays for the mistakes?
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Whitewhale,
As a new poster you might not know that they never let the truth get in the way of a good "dit" on this forum. You and I both know that the only new carrier that has had problems with it's "engines" is the new Indian carrier, which has had to have it's boilers re-bricked after sea trials. The Indians also have a floating hull which is the first step in their indigenous carrier build which by virtue of the fact that it is floating outside, gets rainwater in it.
Wrong carriers, wrong country, but hey it wouldn't have made a good dit!
Cheers now
As a new poster you might not know that they never let the truth get in the way of a good "dit" on this forum. You and I both know that the only new carrier that has had problems with it's "engines" is the new Indian carrier, which has had to have it's boilers re-bricked after sea trials. The Indians also have a floating hull which is the first step in their indigenous carrier build which by virtue of the fact that it is floating outside, gets rainwater in it.
Wrong carriers, wrong country, but hey it wouldn't have made a good dit!
Cheers now
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Aren't they through-deck cruisers?
Stuffy
Demonstrably, MoD does read pprune, but in the main to establish where their cover up efforts should be directed! We sometimes give away too much here for our own good. "GOCO" is the current high profile example, where the basic idea has been copied but no-one in MoD actually understands most of it is mandated policy and used to be a core competence before promotion into MoD(PE). When this was pointed out here, MoD swiftly denied what Bernard Gray had said in radio interviews (despite the recordings being sent to Ministers by an MP!)
MRA4 was ultimately cancelled because no-one would sign the airworthiness certification. A former Minister finally conceded this in February this year. All the angst here and in the media about "We've spend £5Bn, why not just use them" was irrelevant. That was sunk costs and no longer part of the equation. I rarely speculate here, but it may be that they were hastily scrapped before anyone "did a Bagnall" and in a fit of madness made a false declaration that they complied with the regulations.
To understand MoD's motives, you must first ask "Who benefits?" (See my above post). If nothing else, it is entertaining watching MoD's antics.
I hope someone from the government/MPA reads your posts and 'tries' to make some changes?
Is this why the Nimrod had to be cancelled ?
To understand MoD's motives, you must first ask "Who benefits?" (See my above post). If nothing else, it is entertaining watching MoD's antics.