'AirTanker aims to solve European tanker shortage'
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it's about the people, how many guys and girls left stranded for 48 hours in very basic conditions, while a company that costs 1M per day gets it's act together. If that was a normal commercial operator they would be paying HOTAC costs and tickets home FAA, not leaving brave young troops laying on a floor with no shower's etc while they sorted a wheel out..
They can have the best despatch rate in the world but their customer services needs an overhaul. Oh no they have a captive market and long contract, so no changes required.
They can have the best despatch rate in the world but their customer services needs an overhaul. Oh no they have a captive market and long contract, so no changes required.
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Genuine question, not a dig, why didn't they use dhl or FedEx priority to get the bits there? Or did they have a mahoosive jack to get there too?
Could this have been the problem? It's all good having a tyre, not much use without the tools to fit it?
Could this have been the problem? It's all good having a tyre, not much use without the tools to fit it?
Last edited by VinRouge; 2nd Aug 2013 at 21:21.
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I suspect the Spanish airbus military have something to do with this...Cobham had the same problem. Although its an airbus part if it doesn't come from an airbus military approved supplier then it cant be fitted...
Pedro in Spain (well his brother actually) can supply it at only 2 times the civil price...bargain!
Pedro in Spain (well his brother actually) can supply it at only 2 times the civil price...bargain!
Biggus
To your costs you can add the hotel bill for the flight crew. As "99" will no doubt be aware, the huts are simply incompatible with crew rest (despite being used for weeks at a time by visiting dets). Let's conservatively assume 6 rooms downtown at £100pn, there's another £1200.... then they get some subsistence allowance..... 10 pers at £30pn, another £600ish. Presumably there are some costs being incurred in the UK by pax who were supposed to have been moved on the frame's next movement as well. Damn, that wheel is looking cheap!
To your costs you can add the hotel bill for the flight crew. As "99" will no doubt be aware, the huts are simply incompatible with crew rest (despite being used for weeks at a time by visiting dets). Let's conservatively assume 6 rooms downtown at £100pn, there's another £1200.... then they get some subsistence allowance..... 10 pers at £30pn, another £600ish. Presumably there are some costs being incurred in the UK by pax who were supposed to have been moved on the frame's next movement as well. Damn, that wheel is looking cheap!
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Can someone tell me how much it cost the UK taxpayer to finance the hotac and allowances for the VC10 and Tristar aircraft crews, scattered across the globe, unserviceable/ awaiting spares over the years and also, how many service personnel have been delayed as a result of this?
I remember, from my VC10 AGE days, it taking us 10 days to deploy to Nellis to take part in a Red Flag exercise because our K3 went Tech at every stop on the way. When we finally arrived we also had to replace one of the engines! Occurrences like this were commonplace and made life for the engineers very interesting.
I believe that a Tristar recently took several weeks to return to Brize from Red Flag due to technical issues with a main gear door?
Voyagers MAR aircraft have a 98% dispatch rate and the CAR aircraft 99%, which are comparable to civilian airline OTP/ dispatch rates.
The military, SR and civilian personnel who operate and support these aircraft are doing a fantastic job in achieving these figures and are always striving to get our boys and girls home on time every time.
I remember, from my VC10 AGE days, it taking us 10 days to deploy to Nellis to take part in a Red Flag exercise because our K3 went Tech at every stop on the way. When we finally arrived we also had to replace one of the engines! Occurrences like this were commonplace and made life for the engineers very interesting.
I believe that a Tristar recently took several weeks to return to Brize from Red Flag due to technical issues with a main gear door?
Voyagers MAR aircraft have a 98% dispatch rate and the CAR aircraft 99%, which are comparable to civilian airline OTP/ dispatch rates.
The military, SR and civilian personnel who operate and support these aircraft are doing a fantastic job in achieving these figures and are always striving to get our boys and girls home on time every time.
Mr Snow,
Apples and pairs. When the Voyagers are as old as the Tristars currently are, i.e. in more than 30 years time, what will their dispatch rate be then? Probably considerably less than 98%!!
Also, how many locations around the world can currently supply tech support and spares for a Tristar or VC-10??
The question was, what were the costs incurred in a 48 hour delay of a Voyager, which appeared to be avoidable if help was sourced locally, and, perhaps more importantly, how robust are the arrangements for obtaining spares and support around the world for what is essentially a civil aircraft in widespread commercial use.
I have no doubts that everyone who operates and supports these aircraft are doing their best, as indeed did/do VC-10 and Tristar personnel before then. However, they can only work within the constraints of the system that has been set up for them - does this include access to spares and support from commercial third parties around the world, or are they always required to go down the "self help" route?
Apples and pairs. When the Voyagers are as old as the Tristars currently are, i.e. in more than 30 years time, what will their dispatch rate be then? Probably considerably less than 98%!!
Also, how many locations around the world can currently supply tech support and spares for a Tristar or VC-10??
The question was, what were the costs incurred in a 48 hour delay of a Voyager, which appeared to be avoidable if help was sourced locally, and, perhaps more importantly, how robust are the arrangements for obtaining spares and support around the world for what is essentially a civil aircraft in widespread commercial use.
I have no doubts that everyone who operates and supports these aircraft are doing their best, as indeed did/do VC-10 and Tristar personnel before then. However, they can only work within the constraints of the system that has been set up for them - does this include access to spares and support from commercial third parties around the world, or are they always required to go down the "self help" route?
Last edited by Biggus; 3rd Aug 2013 at 17:29.
I have no doubt the single biggest factor in not popping to the stores shed in the next airport would've been trying to get the thing into Minhad. UAE customs quite simply doesn't do flexibility - I have personal experience of this - so getting it on the next in-bound flight to the airfield was likely the quickest thing to do.
Last edited by alfred_the_great; 3rd Aug 2013 at 17:49.
a_t_g,
Not!
lj101,
Even in English now 1Bn is normally 1,000,000,000.
(10.5 x 1,000,000,000)/(27 x 365) is £1,065,449 according to my calculator!!
Not!
lj101,
Even in English now 1Bn is normally 1,000,000,000.
(10.5 x 1,000,000,000)/(27 x 365) is £1,065,449 according to my calculator!!
Last edited by Biggus; 3rd Aug 2013 at 19:29.
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Biggus
Thanks
I should have read it properly.
Thanks
In British English, a billion used to be equivalent to a million million (i.e. 1,000,000,000,000), while in American English it has always equated to a thousand million (i.e. 1,000,000,000). British English has now adopted the American figure, though, so that a billion equals a thousand million in both varieties of English.
The same sort of change has taken place with the meaning of trillion. In British English, a trillion used to mean a million million million (i.e. 1,000,000,000,000,000,000). Nowadays, it's generally held to be equivalent to a million million (1,000,000,000,000), as it is in American English.
The same sort of change has taken place with the meaning of trillion. In British English, a trillion used to mean a million million million (i.e. 1,000,000,000,000,000,000). Nowadays, it's generally held to be equivalent to a million million (1,000,000,000,000), as it is in American English.
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My point was really about how any delay, whether it is technical or operational, costs money. The VC10 and Tristar AT/AAR fleet are costly to operate and very unreliable.
The Government cocked up years ago by keeping the VC10 and Tristar in service too long. Maintenance and operational costs rose as reliability fell. Now they have no money so they have had to pay for the replacement aircraft on the 'never, never'.
Of course it is going to cost more but it would appear that there is no other option?
It is hard to accept, but ATrS are providing a service that the MOD were unable to do due to the government's lack of forward thinking. Moving on......
The Government cocked up years ago by keeping the VC10 and Tristar in service too long. Maintenance and operational costs rose as reliability fell. Now they have no money so they have had to pay for the replacement aircraft on the 'never, never'.
Of course it is going to cost more but it would appear that there is no other option?
It is hard to accept, but ATrS are providing a service that the MOD were unable to do due to the government's lack of forward thinking. Moving on......
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Since that "unfortunate" incident, how many times has the question been asked of their cabin crew, " Are there any spare mainwheels here in Minehead now?"
I think a more relevant question is , "are the spares we are carrying in date?"
Originally Posted by downsizer
All well and good slating the Tri*, but remind me, can Voyager fly into Bastion...??
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To be fair.....
Sourced from;
House of Commons - Delivering Multi-Role Tanker Aircraft Capability - Public Accounts Committee
12. Currently, FSTA is unable to fly into Afghanistan as it does not have the necessary protection equipment to fly into high threat environments.[30] The United Kingdom started operations in Afghanistan in 2001, when the requirements for FSTA were still immature. However the Department did not recognise the need for such equipment until 2006 in their Concept of Use document for FSTA and took the decision not to include it in the contract negotiations to avoid further delays, given the advanced stage negotiations were already at. The Department's explanation for the delay in recognising such a need was the significant difference in operational conditions between 2001 and 2006, in particular the scale of the challenge in Afghanistan.[31]
13. However, four years after this recognition, the Department has still not yet decided whether it will install this equipment on FSTA, citing that the need for FSTA to fly into high threat environment is not completely self-evident.[32] The Department has also only indicative costs from AirTanker over how much the modification work would cost and no funds have been ring-fenced for such work. Given the proximity of the forthcoming Strategic Defence and Security Review, the Department is now awaiting the outcome to see if it concludes there is such a need and what funding will be available before making a final judgement.[33]
14. Furthermore if the Department does decide to install this equipment, these are not quick modifications to make. On security grounds the Department did not wish to provide a clear indication of the time it might take, but estimated that a modification developed from scratch would typically take at least two years.[34] In the meantime, the Department is extending the life of the Tristar to allow it to fly into high threat environments, such as Afghanistan, up to 2016 and at a cost of £23.5 million.[35] Until a decision is made to install this equipment, FSTA will not be able to replace the Tristar fleet in its current role of flying personnel in and out of Afghanistan.[36]
13. However, four years after this recognition, the Department has still not yet decided whether it will install this equipment on FSTA, citing that the need for FSTA to fly into high threat environment is not completely self-evident.[32] The Department has also only indicative costs from AirTanker over how much the modification work would cost and no funds have been ring-fenced for such work. Given the proximity of the forthcoming Strategic Defence and Security Review, the Department is now awaiting the outcome to see if it concludes there is such a need and what funding will be available before making a final judgement.[33]
14. Furthermore if the Department does decide to install this equipment, these are not quick modifications to make. On security grounds the Department did not wish to provide a clear indication of the time it might take, but estimated that a modification developed from scratch would typically take at least two years.[34] In the meantime, the Department is extending the life of the Tristar to allow it to fly into high threat environments, such as Afghanistan, up to 2016 and at a cost of £23.5 million.[35] Until a decision is made to install this equipment, FSTA will not be able to replace the Tristar fleet in its current role of flying personnel in and out of Afghanistan.[36]
House of Commons - Delivering Multi-Role Tanker Aircraft Capability - Public Accounts Committee