Here it comes: Syria
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Torquay, England
Posts: 838
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is like watching children debating with adults!!!!
Success, success
Kerry has now agreed to hold talks in New York on the 28th of this month (15 days away) These talks will discuss a location to hold talks about what to talk about
John Kerry was delighted with the result, shaking hands with both his Russian and Syrian counterparts.
Yup he has certainly won that round and this is all being taken very very seriously.
What an embarrassment but at least John Kerry managed to show his ignorance by doubting what was beng said when the Russians spoke in their mother tongue.... They simply reverted to speaking in English!!
Diplomacy is an art and Russia is giving us all a lesson in how to get what we want by words and words alone.
Success, success
Kerry has now agreed to hold talks in New York on the 28th of this month (15 days away) These talks will discuss a location to hold talks about what to talk about
John Kerry was delighted with the result, shaking hands with both his Russian and Syrian counterparts. Yup he has certainly won that round and this is all being taken very very seriously.
What an embarrassment but at least John Kerry managed to show his ignorance by doubting what was beng said when the Russians spoke in their mother tongue.... They simply reverted to speaking in English!!
Diplomacy is an art and Russia is giving us all a lesson in how to get what we want by words and words alone.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
False flag is a well known tool of propagandists. Unfortunately it is so well known that its effects on disengaged populations is often the reverse of that intended.
The greater the apparent atrocities the stronger our resistance to such propaganda.
While some media imagery is undoubtedly contemporary many other images have no verified date, and as mentioned earlier on this thread, are often wholly contrived and irrelevant. Witness the B2s and X47 at Akrotiri or the Iraqi bodies from 10 years (?) previous.
No one has commented on my earlier observation of how clean and clear the streets are in the devastated areas which illustrate that there is civil control in the area. How old is that devastation?
The greater the apparent atrocities the stronger our resistance to such propaganda.
While some media imagery is undoubtedly contemporary many other images have no verified date, and as mentioned earlier on this thread, are often wholly contrived and irrelevant. Witness the B2s and X47 at Akrotiri or the Iraqi bodies from 10 years (?) previous.
No one has commented on my earlier observation of how clean and clear the streets are in the devastated areas which illustrate that there is civil control in the area. How old is that devastation?
Ronald,
It isn't 'clear'. Typical RT spinning and clutching at straws yet again. Piccinin simply gained an impression and it offers no proof and certainly isn't clear. Piccinin simply dismisses a moment of madness by Assad forces but it could well have been just that.
It isn't 'clear'. Typical RT spinning and clutching at straws yet again. Piccinin simply gained an impression and it offers no proof and certainly isn't clear. Piccinin simply dismisses a moment of madness by Assad forces but it could well have been just that.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TEEEJ, RT is the best network out there by far. One gets to see stories on RT which are not on any of the mainstream propaganda networks.
At the very least it creates doubt about the official western story of lies which can only be a good thing.
At the very least it creates doubt about the official western story of lies which can only be a good thing.
Ronald,
RT is a joke! I tune in purely for amusement at just how far they will spin a story. RT is pure Russian Government propaganda at its worst. It never fails to amuse me how many ranting conspiracy nuts they have on speed dial!
RT is a joke! I tune in purely for amusement at just how far they will spin a story. RT is pure Russian Government propaganda at its worst. It never fails to amuse me how many ranting conspiracy nuts they have on speed dial!
PN,
In reference to the Iraq image it was simply an error originally posted by the BBC. Since then it has spun by conspiracy types and claimed to have been used by Kerry during his briefings. Stuffy posted a link for the conspiracy nut website article with the title.
'Bombshell: Kerry Caught Using Fake Photos to Fuel Syrian War'
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ml#post8022756
There isn't a shred of evidence that Kerry used or referred to that Iraqi image. There are several images taken in the aftermath of the chemical attack that fit what Kerry described.
Statement on Syria
In reference to the Iraq image it was simply an error originally posted by the BBC. Since then it has spun by conspiracy types and claimed to have been used by Kerry during his briefings. Stuffy posted a link for the conspiracy nut website article with the title.
'Bombshell: Kerry Caught Using Fake Photos to Fuel Syrian War'
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ml#post8022756
There isn't a shred of evidence that Kerry used or referred to that Iraqi image. There are several images taken in the aftermath of the chemical attack that fit what Kerry described.
We saw rows of dead lined up in burial shrouds, the white linen unstained by a single drop of blood. Instead of being tucked safely in their beds at home, we saw rows of children lying side by side sprawled on a hospital floor, all of them dead from Assad’s gas and surrounded by parents and grandparents who had suffered the same fate.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
TEEEJ, I know it was a fake/error as it was roundly debunked on here though I missed such revelation on mains stream media. I think it is true to say that when any media splash inches high news their subsequent apology is in mini-print and buried out of sight.
Apparently the layout and position of any item in a newspaper is done with precise knowledge of its visibility and impact with the readership.
There is an example today in the Torygraph, News Bulletin, page 2 ie left hand, in right hand column and right at the bottom. That is a pretty 'hidden' position. It then refers to a dispute from an article printed 2 1/2 months ago. Who, amongst the general readership, will remember the article or, should they wish to quote from it, amend the original.
In other words, more people will remember the lie than will seek or believe the truth.
Apparently the layout and position of any item in a newspaper is done with precise knowledge of its visibility and impact with the readership.
There is an example today in the Torygraph, News Bulletin, page 2 ie left hand, in right hand column and right at the bottom. That is a pretty 'hidden' position. It then refers to a dispute from an article printed 2 1/2 months ago. Who, amongst the general readership, will remember the article or, should they wish to quote from it, amend the original.
In other words, more people will remember the lie than will seek or believe the truth.
Imagery brief on Syria from ISIS.
http://isis-online.org/uploads/isis-...12sept2013.pdf
This report seeks to assess the situation at Marj as Sulţān, the characteristics of a secret stock of natural
uranium in Syria, and other nuclear assets reported to have been located at the Marj as Sulţān site. Syria is not
believed to have an active, secret nuclear program at this time, but Syria is believed to be actively hiding assets
associated with this past undeclared nuclear reactor effort.
uranium in Syria, and other nuclear assets reported to have been located at the Marj as Sulţān site. Syria is not
believed to have an active, secret nuclear program at this time, but Syria is believed to be actively hiding assets
associated with this past undeclared nuclear reactor effort.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What started out as an internal war in Syria where Russia just wanted to
protect it's warm water port on the Med has now given rise to Russia
improving it's fleet in the Med 10 fold as well as being seen around the
world as being the only one in control as well as setting the agenda.
Good work Barry
protect it's warm water port on the Med has now given rise to Russia
improving it's fleet in the Med 10 fold as well as being seen around the
world as being the only one in control as well as setting the agenda.
Good work Barry
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Russia is well and truly back on the world stage and their power will only increase. What with their SCO alliance with China and other nations they are a very powerful force.
I see India is now keen to head towards the SCO to, they can see the writing on the wall for the west probably:- India keen to deepen its security-related cooperation with SCO: Salman Khurshid | Business Standard
I note India also supports Russia and China over Syria to. So that's the main three new global powers lining up against the west, the fourth (Brazil) is with them to, also key regional players like Iran.
Its hard to know where we in the west have gone so wrong, our little wars have made us rather unpopular the world over and driven nations to support our rivals, the truth is our rivals seem to have a more logical world view than our own leaders. But then again all empires rise and fall, it seems to me in many ways we in the west have had our day, for now.
I see India is now keen to head towards the SCO to, they can see the writing on the wall for the west probably:- India keen to deepen its security-related cooperation with SCO: Salman Khurshid | Business Standard
I note India also supports Russia and China over Syria to. So that's the main three new global powers lining up against the west, the fourth (Brazil) is with them to, also key regional players like Iran.
Its hard to know where we in the west have gone so wrong, our little wars have made us rather unpopular the world over and driven nations to support our rivals, the truth is our rivals seem to have a more logical world view than our own leaders. But then again all empires rise and fall, it seems to me in many ways we in the west have had our day, for now.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Unit 450
Elite Syrian Unit Scatters Chemical Arms Stockpile
A secretive Syrian military unit at the center of the Assad regime's chemical weapons program has been moving stocks of poison gases and munitions to as many as 50 sites to make them harder for the U.S. to track, according to American and Middle Eastern officials.
The movements of chemical weapons by Syria's elite Unit 450 could complicate any U.S. bombing campaign in Syria over its alleged chemical attacks, officials said. It also raises questions about implementation of a Russian proposal that calls for the regime to surrender control of its stockpile, they said. U.S. and Israeli intelligence agencies still believe they know where most of the Syrian regime's chemical weapons are located, but with less confidence than six months ago, U.S. officials said.........
Unit 450—a branch of the Syrian Scientific Studies and Research Center that manages the regime's overall chemicals weapons program—has been moving the stocks around for months, officials and lawmakers briefed on the intelligence said. Movements occurred as recently as last week, the officials said, after Mr. Obama said he was preparing to launch strikes.
The unit is in charge of mixing and deploying chemical munitions, and it provides security at chemical sites, according to U.S. and European intelligence agencies. It is composed of officers from Mr. Assad's Alawite sect. One diplomat briefed on the unit said it was Alawite from "janitor to commander." U.S. military officials have looked into the possibility of gaining influence over members of Unit 450 through inducements or threats. "In a perfect world, you would actually like to co-opt that unit. Who cares who pays them as long as they sit on the chemical weapons," said a senior U.S. military official. Although the option remains on the table, government experts say the unit is so close knit that they doubt any member could break ranks without being exposed and killed.
The U.S. estimates the regime has 1,000 metric tons of chemical and biological agents. "That is what we know about. There might be more," said one senior U.S. official. The regime traditionally kept most of its chemical and biological weapons at a few large sites in western Syria, U.S. officials said. But beginning about a year ago, the Syrians started dispersing the arsenal to nearly two dozen major sites. Unit 450 also started using dozens of smaller sites. The U.S. now believes Mr. Assad's chemical arsenal has been scattered to as many as 50 locations in the west, north and south, as well as new sites in the east, officials said.
The U.S. is using satellites to track vehicles employed by Unit 450 to disperse the chemical-weapons stocks. But the imagery doesn't always show what is being put on the trucks. "We know a lot less than we did six months ago about where the chemical weapons are," one official said. The movements, activities and base locations of Unit 450 are so sensitive that the U.S. won't share information with even trusted allies in the opposition for fear the unit would be overrun by rebels, said current and former U.S. officials.
The U.S. wants any military strikes in Syria to send a message to the heads of Unit 450 that there is a steep price for following orders to use chemical weapons, U.S. officials said. At the same time, the U.S. doesn't want any strike to destabilize the unit so much that it loses control of its chemical weapons, giving rebels a chance to seize the arsenal. "Attacking Unit 450, assuming we have any idea where they actually are, would be a pretty tricky affair because…if you attack them you may reduce the security of their weapons, which is something we certainly don't want," said Jeffrey White, a veteran of the Defense Intelligence Agency and a defense fellow at The Washington Institute.
Within Syria, little is known about Unit 450 or the Syrian Scientific Studies and Research Center. One of the buildings is in a sprawling complex on the outskirts of Damascus. Even high-ranking defectors from the Syrian military that form the core of the rebel insurgency—including those who served in units trained to handle chemical attacks—said they hadn't heard of Unit 450.
The Pentagon has prepared multiple target lists for possible strikes, some of which include commanders of Unit 450. But a senior U.S. official said no decision has been made to target them, reflecting the challenge of sending a message to Unit 450 without destabilizing it. In some respects, officials said, the hands-on role that Unit 450 plays in safeguarding the regime's chemical weapons secrets makes it too valuable for the U.S. to eliminate, even though the U.S. believes the unit is directly responsible for the alleged chemical weapons abuses.
The Syrian Scientific Studies and Research Center answers only to Mr. Assad and the most senior members of his clan, according to U.S. and European officials. Attack orders are forwarded to a commanding officer within Unit 450. If the Russians clinch a deal for Mr. Assad to give up his chemical weapons, any prospective United Nations-led force to protect inspectors and secure storage sites would likely need to work closely with Unit 450 and the research center, current and former administration officials said.
Gen. Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the U.S. military's Joint Chiefs of Staff, has said that President Barack Obama directed him to plan for "a militarily significant strike" that would deter the Assad regime's further use of chemical weapons and degrade the regime's military capability to employ chemical weapons in the future. But officials said the U.S. doesn't plan to bomb chemical weapons sites directly because of concerns any attack would disperse poison agents and put civilians at risk. In addition to satellites, the U.S. also relies on Israeli spies for on-the-ground intelligence about the unit, according to U.S. and Israeli officials.
Though small in size, Unit 450 controls a vast infrastructure that makes it easier for the U.S. and Israel to track its movements. Chemical weapons storage depots are guarded by the unit within larger compounds to provide multiple layers of security, U.S. officials said. Whenever chemical munitions are deployed in the field, Unit 450 has to pre-deploy heavy equipment to chemical mixing areas, which the U.S. and Israel can track.
A secretive Syrian military unit at the center of the Assad regime's chemical weapons program has been moving stocks of poison gases and munitions to as many as 50 sites to make them harder for the U.S. to track, according to American and Middle Eastern officials.
The movements of chemical weapons by Syria's elite Unit 450 could complicate any U.S. bombing campaign in Syria over its alleged chemical attacks, officials said. It also raises questions about implementation of a Russian proposal that calls for the regime to surrender control of its stockpile, they said. U.S. and Israeli intelligence agencies still believe they know where most of the Syrian regime's chemical weapons are located, but with less confidence than six months ago, U.S. officials said.........
Unit 450—a branch of the Syrian Scientific Studies and Research Center that manages the regime's overall chemicals weapons program—has been moving the stocks around for months, officials and lawmakers briefed on the intelligence said. Movements occurred as recently as last week, the officials said, after Mr. Obama said he was preparing to launch strikes.
The unit is in charge of mixing and deploying chemical munitions, and it provides security at chemical sites, according to U.S. and European intelligence agencies. It is composed of officers from Mr. Assad's Alawite sect. One diplomat briefed on the unit said it was Alawite from "janitor to commander." U.S. military officials have looked into the possibility of gaining influence over members of Unit 450 through inducements or threats. "In a perfect world, you would actually like to co-opt that unit. Who cares who pays them as long as they sit on the chemical weapons," said a senior U.S. military official. Although the option remains on the table, government experts say the unit is so close knit that they doubt any member could break ranks without being exposed and killed.
The U.S. estimates the regime has 1,000 metric tons of chemical and biological agents. "That is what we know about. There might be more," said one senior U.S. official. The regime traditionally kept most of its chemical and biological weapons at a few large sites in western Syria, U.S. officials said. But beginning about a year ago, the Syrians started dispersing the arsenal to nearly two dozen major sites. Unit 450 also started using dozens of smaller sites. The U.S. now believes Mr. Assad's chemical arsenal has been scattered to as many as 50 locations in the west, north and south, as well as new sites in the east, officials said.
The U.S. is using satellites to track vehicles employed by Unit 450 to disperse the chemical-weapons stocks. But the imagery doesn't always show what is being put on the trucks. "We know a lot less than we did six months ago about where the chemical weapons are," one official said. The movements, activities and base locations of Unit 450 are so sensitive that the U.S. won't share information with even trusted allies in the opposition for fear the unit would be overrun by rebels, said current and former U.S. officials.
The U.S. wants any military strikes in Syria to send a message to the heads of Unit 450 that there is a steep price for following orders to use chemical weapons, U.S. officials said. At the same time, the U.S. doesn't want any strike to destabilize the unit so much that it loses control of its chemical weapons, giving rebels a chance to seize the arsenal. "Attacking Unit 450, assuming we have any idea where they actually are, would be a pretty tricky affair because…if you attack them you may reduce the security of their weapons, which is something we certainly don't want," said Jeffrey White, a veteran of the Defense Intelligence Agency and a defense fellow at The Washington Institute.
Within Syria, little is known about Unit 450 or the Syrian Scientific Studies and Research Center. One of the buildings is in a sprawling complex on the outskirts of Damascus. Even high-ranking defectors from the Syrian military that form the core of the rebel insurgency—including those who served in units trained to handle chemical attacks—said they hadn't heard of Unit 450.
The Pentagon has prepared multiple target lists for possible strikes, some of which include commanders of Unit 450. But a senior U.S. official said no decision has been made to target them, reflecting the challenge of sending a message to Unit 450 without destabilizing it. In some respects, officials said, the hands-on role that Unit 450 plays in safeguarding the regime's chemical weapons secrets makes it too valuable for the U.S. to eliminate, even though the U.S. believes the unit is directly responsible for the alleged chemical weapons abuses.
The Syrian Scientific Studies and Research Center answers only to Mr. Assad and the most senior members of his clan, according to U.S. and European officials. Attack orders are forwarded to a commanding officer within Unit 450. If the Russians clinch a deal for Mr. Assad to give up his chemical weapons, any prospective United Nations-led force to protect inspectors and secure storage sites would likely need to work closely with Unit 450 and the research center, current and former administration officials said.
Gen. Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the U.S. military's Joint Chiefs of Staff, has said that President Barack Obama directed him to plan for "a militarily significant strike" that would deter the Assad regime's further use of chemical weapons and degrade the regime's military capability to employ chemical weapons in the future. But officials said the U.S. doesn't plan to bomb chemical weapons sites directly because of concerns any attack would disperse poison agents and put civilians at risk. In addition to satellites, the U.S. also relies on Israeli spies for on-the-ground intelligence about the unit, according to U.S. and Israeli officials.
Though small in size, Unit 450 controls a vast infrastructure that makes it easier for the U.S. and Israel to track its movements. Chemical weapons storage depots are guarded by the unit within larger compounds to provide multiple layers of security, U.S. officials said. Whenever chemical munitions are deployed in the field, Unit 450 has to pre-deploy heavy equipment to chemical mixing areas, which the U.S. and Israel can track.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
What does STUFFED mean again?
Make a plan, give an ultimatum, execute the plan.
Make a plan, give an ultimatum, execute the plan.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 714
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Russia is well and truly back on the world stage and their power will only increase. What with their SCO alliance with China and other nations they are a very powerful force.
Its hard to know where we in the west have gone so wrong, our little wars have made us rather unpopular the world over and driven nations to support our rivals, the truth is our rivals seem to have a more logical world view than our own leaders. But then again all empires rise and fall, it seems to me in many ways we in the west have had our day, for now.
Its hard to know where we in the west have gone so wrong, our little wars have made us rather unpopular the world over and driven nations to support our rivals, the truth is our rivals seem to have a more logical world view than our own leaders. But then again all empires rise and fall, it seems to me in many ways we in the west have had our day, for now.
Ronald,
Fret not, I'm sure we could raise you the air fare for a one way trip to Moscow. I'm sure you would be much happier there.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
TJ, in this we also rather think the Russians are playing their hand rather better than the US academics.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 714
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With respect to Syria, and for the moment, that may well be the case. However, Russia leading us in the march toward the "broad sunlit uplands" of tomorrow, sorry Ronald's being a bit too ready to condemn the old guard.
Last edited by TomJoad; 13th Sep 2013 at 20:38.