You know you have become a third rate Air Force when....
Gentlemen,
I would propose that " you know when you're a third rate Air Force when", you have been defeated by an equally third rate organisation. To my knowledge, apart from political attacks, it hasn't happened yet. I believe that something about our traditions and training methods, enthuses whoever is left to do their best, make do and maintain the spirit and traditions of the service. That should stand us in good stead, it can be no fault of the servicemen if political meddling has lead to a smaller force. The demise of the size of our forces is political, not service generated, it should be noted and no excuses accepted when political fingers point.
Smudge
I would propose that " you know when you're a third rate Air Force when", you have been defeated by an equally third rate organisation. To my knowledge, apart from political attacks, it hasn't happened yet. I believe that something about our traditions and training methods, enthuses whoever is left to do their best, make do and maintain the spirit and traditions of the service. That should stand us in good stead, it can be no fault of the servicemen if political meddling has lead to a smaller force. The demise of the size of our forces is political, not service generated, it should be noted and no excuses accepted when political fingers point.
Smudge
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When your time *waiting* to train (and not actually training) is longer than any operational career you will ever have.
Personally speaking, I dont hold much allegiance to the RAF these days given the damage my career has suffered as a result - if a better job was offered me this morning, I'd be hitting the PVR button before lunch.
The only thing worse than being told I have to wait years to become LCR is that if I wanted to go, I'd get sweet FA for it. How on earth they ever justified not making a bunch of us redundant in favour of paying £28k + pa as as untrained strength for 3 years I'll never know. That cheque would have set me up nicely in the commercial diving industry, which as I understand, is booming at present...
Personally speaking, I dont hold much allegiance to the RAF these days given the damage my career has suffered as a result - if a better job was offered me this morning, I'd be hitting the PVR button before lunch.
The only thing worse than being told I have to wait years to become LCR is that if I wanted to go, I'd get sweet FA for it. How on earth they ever justified not making a bunch of us redundant in favour of paying £28k + pa as as untrained strength for 3 years I'll never know. That cheque would have set me up nicely in the commercial diving industry, which as I understand, is booming at present...
WannabeCrewman, how I sympathise with you. Personnel management has never been a strong suit of the top brass. They'll shaft you, shaft the taxpayer and beggar the defence of the country on the altar of their careers. I'd apologise for going of topic but I fear that the cause of our becoming a third rate Air Force has to be laid at the door of their Airships. WC, you have have put your finger on a root cause. I found my own allegiance waning towards the end as more and more of my job was subsumed under a tidal wave of illogical regulation. Your position is just another example of this intellectually bankrupt organisation.
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Wannabe you had my sympathy until I read past your 1st line. Listen, nobody owes you a living fella. If you are that discontented with your lot, so convinced of the damage done to your career and so convinced of the value of your innate talent to the civilian market then do yourself and everybody else a favour and leave.
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When I joined up I waited from school on the dole for 6 months for my entry and course date to start, what a farce that was, I was sent to interviews and pointed out to those interviewing me that I had my entry date into the RAF, I could not see the point of taking someones possible job, to then leave in 6 months when mine was already sorted, especially when one saw some of the queues. I got accused of timewasting by some interviewers, but pointed out it was the system that made me have to come out to them, not me.
It seems an odd state of affair to recruit people without a current vacancy or course on offer.
It seems an odd state of affair to recruit people without a current vacancy or course on offer.
Last edited by NutLoose; 7th Oct 2013 at 11:43.
TomJoad,
You'll have to forgive me if I am talking out of turn - it comes with being a grumpy 2IC - but pretty much all of your recent posts have been fairly critical of individuals who have dared to stick their heads above the parapet and have a harrumph at the way things are spiralling.
Given that PPRuNe's relative anonymity means that this forum is probably one of the only places people can do this without inflicting any last damage on their careers, I'm surprised that you are surprised about such discontent being voiced.
But more to the point, could you tell us which bit of the RAF or Defence you are working in, assuming of course that you are. Because if your bit of the trench is as rosy and as free of criticism as your posts would imply I think there are a lot of people who would like a transfer.
You'll have to forgive me if I am talking out of turn - it comes with being a grumpy 2IC - but pretty much all of your recent posts have been fairly critical of individuals who have dared to stick their heads above the parapet and have a harrumph at the way things are spiralling.
Given that PPRuNe's relative anonymity means that this forum is probably one of the only places people can do this without inflicting any last damage on their careers, I'm surprised that you are surprised about such discontent being voiced.
But more to the point, could you tell us which bit of the RAF or Defence you are working in, assuming of course that you are. Because if your bit of the trench is as rosy and as free of criticism as your posts would imply I think there are a lot of people who would like a transfer.
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Originally Posted by TomJoad
Wannabe you had my sympathy until I read past your 1st line. Listen, nobody owes you a living fella. If you are that discontented with your lot, so convinced of the damage done to your career and so convinced of the value of your innate talent to the civilian market then do yourself and everybody else a favour and leave.
I really don't get this "treat your workforce with complete distain" attitude that some managers in the RAF have.
It would not be doing everyone a favour if even more guys left. Some places are struggling for manpower as it is. That's why there is no 3rd tranche of redundancy.
TJ is more than capable of answering for himself, however, in the absence of a reply from him, I can say that from comments he has made on other threads he is retired from the RAF, and now firmly established in a second career - teaching.
Without meaning to directly criticize TJ, perhaps it is easier to say "if you don't like it get out" if you have successfully made that move yourself. I believe there was once a famous comment from an RAF 4*, along the lines of "..if you don't like where the train (RAF) is going, then get off at the next stop...". That went down well with the troops!!
I don't know when TJ retired, so I don't know how much experience he had of the most recent straws on the camel's back that is life in a blue suit today.
However, he is quite a prolific poster, so no doubt will be along shortly to reply to people's (including probably mine) comments and correct any misconceptions.
Without meaning to directly criticize TJ, perhaps it is easier to say "if you don't like it get out" if you have successfully made that move yourself. I believe there was once a famous comment from an RAF 4*, along the lines of "..if you don't like where the train (RAF) is going, then get off at the next stop...". That went down well with the troops!!
I don't know when TJ retired, so I don't know how much experience he had of the most recent straws on the camel's back that is life in a blue suit today.
However, he is quite a prolific poster, so no doubt will be along shortly to reply to people's (including probably mine) comments and correct any misconceptions.
Last edited by Biggus; 7th Oct 2013 at 16:37.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I believe that something about our traditions and training methods, enthuses whoever is left to do their best, make do and maintain the spirit and traditions of the service
Only when it is broke with it been seen by the masters that there is a need to fix it. The RAF needs more of Bader's ilk declaring his sqn non-operational.
Slight thread drift, but how frequently do junior officers, from sqn cdr down meet with senior officers of AOC and above? And I don't mean over coffee at a general meet and greet.
In the 60s no V-force captain was appointed without an interview with his AOC.
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Melchette, no need for forgiveness - you talk freely, we need more clear speaking here and less double speak. If I have been critical of those "harrumphing" of late then it is borne in part from my own experience. As a FLt Cdr and latterly Sqn Cdr (practice Sqn Cdr I was an Eng O not aircrew) I was often the guy to listen to the "hurraumphs" and while time may have advanced the root of the "harraumphs" remains common - "the service is going in that direction and my personal aspirations/ambitions are pointing in another". It is not a new story, I would be surprised if it is not recognised by every serviceman of any era.
Yeah you got me, my bit of the trench is rosy, I left in 2005. I was serving in the DLO at the time and, just as now, I too was troubled by the divergence of the Service and my own personal needs. Things started to pull in different directions, just as they are doing for many now. And as Biggus noted, I have openly discussed it on the forum, I left and returned to teaching. However, Biggus is wrong where he surmises that the decision was easy. That said, once you openly feel towards the Service, as Wannabe described, then labouring on simply does not make sense. Nor does sitting back passively waiting for something to happen. Especially when you are so convinced of your skills and market value. The changes to the service are profound. No argument there. Yes those changes are causing a lot of personal angst. No argument there either. So, you either make the adjustment and recommit as many have done or you make the step change that only you are empowered to do.
Yes in a way, similar advice to the "if you don't like where the train (RAF) is going" story - I was in the audience Biggus, at HQ STC, and yes it had its shock value - but on reflection, little to argue with and honest plain speaking. There is absolutely no point in railing against the changes. And life outside is not so different, many, many folk out here face exactly the same concerns.
In my new day job I actively promote the RAF to the young lads and lasses as a worthy and rewarding career to follow. I'm heavily involved with the Air Cadets where I do similar. I try to impress upon them not to automatically consider it a job for life, to plan for a second, third career and to keep the plan open as they go along. And yes, I warn them to watch out for the disgruntled. I also impress upon them that the best thing about advice is that its uptake is optional
Yeah you got me, my bit of the trench is rosy, I left in 2005. I was serving in the DLO at the time and, just as now, I too was troubled by the divergence of the Service and my own personal needs. Things started to pull in different directions, just as they are doing for many now. And as Biggus noted, I have openly discussed it on the forum, I left and returned to teaching. However, Biggus is wrong where he surmises that the decision was easy. That said, once you openly feel towards the Service, as Wannabe described, then labouring on simply does not make sense. Nor does sitting back passively waiting for something to happen. Especially when you are so convinced of your skills and market value. The changes to the service are profound. No argument there. Yes those changes are causing a lot of personal angst. No argument there either. So, you either make the adjustment and recommit as many have done or you make the step change that only you are empowered to do.
Yes in a way, similar advice to the "if you don't like where the train (RAF) is going" story - I was in the audience Biggus, at HQ STC, and yes it had its shock value - but on reflection, little to argue with and honest plain speaking. There is absolutely no point in railing against the changes. And life outside is not so different, many, many folk out here face exactly the same concerns.
In my new day job I actively promote the RAF to the young lads and lasses as a worthy and rewarding career to follow. I'm heavily involved with the Air Cadets where I do similar. I try to impress upon them not to automatically consider it a job for life, to plan for a second, third career and to keep the plan open as they go along. And yes, I warn them to watch out for the disgruntled. I also impress upon them that the best thing about advice is that its uptake is optional
Last edited by TomJoad; 7th Oct 2013 at 19:00.
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Didn't AVM Simon Bryant do that recently (on Libya) only to rebuffed by our idiot PM. I have a lot of respect for Bryant, a gentleman and thoroughly competent operator. Call me Dave should have paid attention.
gr4techie
No - the reason there was no third tranche was that the politicians told us there would not be. The RAF really wanted the third tranche to better spread the redundancies and allow strength and establishment to better align over the 13-16 period. By having only 2 tranches, people had to be taken earlier, exacerbating the gapping that we are suffering now.
However, it didn't make any real difference to the total reduction in numbers.
No - the reason there was no third tranche was that the politicians told us there would not be. The RAF really wanted the third tranche to better spread the redundancies and allow strength and establishment to better align over the 13-16 period. By having only 2 tranches, people had to be taken earlier, exacerbating the gapping that we are suffering now.
However, it didn't make any real difference to the total reduction in numbers.
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I believe there was once a famous comment from an RAF 4*, along the lines of "..if you don't like where the train (RAF) is going, then get off at the next stop...". That went down well with the troops!!
I have been out now for 7 years but still teach at Phase 2 level as a CS. I am amazed at how busy everybody in uniform seems to be and yet the RAF is shrinking at an amazing rate. When you look a little closer it seems that a lot of this extra workload revolves around intiatives, regulation, preparing for one inspection, secondary duties, education, workshops, online courses...the list goes on. We also have 16 nominated E&D Reps. Meantime the UK airspace is seemingly empty of Mil aircraft (compared to 15 years ago). Also, now that OFSTED is part of the plan we seem to spend more time measuring, data collecting, value adding than we do actually teaching.
I loved my time in and I still thoroughly enjoy my job and the environment but I can't help feeling that we are slowly turning into another below par Public Service overstaffed by 'Managers' and weighed down by needless beauracracy.
As an aside we have had 4 PVRs in the last 6 weeks.
I loved my time in and I still thoroughly enjoy my job and the environment but I can't help feeling that we are slowly turning into another below par Public Service overstaffed by 'Managers' and weighed down by needless beauracracy.
As an aside we have had 4 PVRs in the last 6 weeks.
Phase 2 is Basic Professional Training after Cranwell/Halton. I teach at one of these schools 'up north'.
As a 'school' we now come under OFSTED and are subject to their inspections and documentation. In reality that now means we spend most of our time making sure the shop window looks great at the expense of concentrating on actually teaching.
This is a personal view, I might add.
As a 'school' we now come under OFSTED and are subject to their inspections and documentation. In reality that now means we spend most of our time making sure the shop window looks great at the expense of concentrating on actually teaching.
This is a personal view, I might add.
Last edited by Wyler; 9th Oct 2013 at 11:14.
Thread Starter
You know you have become a third rate Air Force when....
.... your military "schools" are subject to OFSTED inspections (despite decades of success in training military personnel to do their job).
.... your military "schools" are subject to OFSTED inspections (despite decades of success in training military personnel to do their job).
Last edited by Roland Pulfrew; 9th Oct 2013 at 13:37.
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OFSTED
Why are businesses doing a modern apprenticeship? Because they receive payment of the Government for doing so. Some businesses only see modern apprenticeships as cheap labour. Often the qualification is worthless outside that company. For example, in aircraft engineering is the NVQ the RAF dishes out worth anything in civilian aviation? Not like a JAR66 licence.