V-22 Osprey Air Refuel F-35Bs for CVFs? + other stuff
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V-22 Osprey Air Refuel F-35Bs for CVFs? + other stuff
Boeing developing Osprey aerial refuelling kit 10 Apr 2013 Dave Majumdar
Boeing developing Osprey aerial refuelling kit
“Boeing is working on developing a roll-on/roll-off aerial refuelling kit for the Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey because of interest expressed by the US Marine Corps and US Special Operations Command. "We are already finalising our designs for what that roll-on/roll-off kit will look like," says Boeing's V-22 business development manager Joe Weston.
The aerial refuelling kit has already been tested in a windtunnel, but Boeing intends to flight test the system onboard a government-owned V-22 during the summer of 2013, Weston says. But the roll-on/roll-off kit is also applicable to intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance functions, which could include an aerial surveillance radar capability, Boeing officials say.
The addition of an aerial refuelling capability onto the V-22 would be a significant boost to the aviation capabilities of amphibious assault ships. If adopted by the USMC, it would mean aviation units assigned to such vessels would gain an organic aerial refuelling capability, which would greatly increase their striking power. Coupled with airborne early warning capability and the short take-off and vertical landing Lockheed Martin F-35B, it would afford vessels such as the USS Wasp capabilities that were previously only seen onboard full-size carriers like the US Navy's Nimitz-class vessels.”
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Did someone mention CVF? Also an ASW & COD F-35 Engine Carrying capacity mooted here:
Osprey Takes on Greyhound in Fight Over U.S. Navy’s COD 09 Apr 2013 By Andrew Drwiega
Rotor & Wing Magazine :: Osprey Takes on Greyhound in Fight Over U.S. Navy’s COD
"...Linhart also said that testing was underway for the Osprey to act as an aerial refueling platform, potentially for F-18 fighters. “The Osprey flying at 250 knots [not its maximum speed] could do the job effectively,” he said. Wind tunnel tests have been conducted over the last year on how the drogue basket would be deployed from the V-22. USMC and the U.S. Air Force currently carry out refueling the Osprey to extend its range, but the V-22 acting as a tanker would be a new mission...."
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V-22 Brief: v22_brief (8Mb)
Click ThumbNail for Big Picture:
Boeing developing Osprey aerial refuelling kit
“Boeing is working on developing a roll-on/roll-off aerial refuelling kit for the Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey because of interest expressed by the US Marine Corps and US Special Operations Command. "We are already finalising our designs for what that roll-on/roll-off kit will look like," says Boeing's V-22 business development manager Joe Weston.
The aerial refuelling kit has already been tested in a windtunnel, but Boeing intends to flight test the system onboard a government-owned V-22 during the summer of 2013, Weston says. But the roll-on/roll-off kit is also applicable to intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance functions, which could include an aerial surveillance radar capability, Boeing officials say.
The addition of an aerial refuelling capability onto the V-22 would be a significant boost to the aviation capabilities of amphibious assault ships. If adopted by the USMC, it would mean aviation units assigned to such vessels would gain an organic aerial refuelling capability, which would greatly increase their striking power. Coupled with airborne early warning capability and the short take-off and vertical landing Lockheed Martin F-35B, it would afford vessels such as the USS Wasp capabilities that were previously only seen onboard full-size carriers like the US Navy's Nimitz-class vessels.”
______________________
Did someone mention CVF? Also an ASW & COD F-35 Engine Carrying capacity mooted here:
Osprey Takes on Greyhound in Fight Over U.S. Navy’s COD 09 Apr 2013 By Andrew Drwiega
Rotor & Wing Magazine :: Osprey Takes on Greyhound in Fight Over U.S. Navy’s COD
"...Linhart also said that testing was underway for the Osprey to act as an aerial refueling platform, potentially for F-18 fighters. “The Osprey flying at 250 knots [not its maximum speed] could do the job effectively,” he said. Wind tunnel tests have been conducted over the last year on how the drogue basket would be deployed from the V-22. USMC and the U.S. Air Force currently carry out refueling the Osprey to extend its range, but the V-22 acting as a tanker would be a new mission...."
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V-22 Brief: v22_brief (8Mb)
Click ThumbNail for Big Picture:
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 10th Apr 2013 at 20:09. Reason: CVF + Add V-22 PDF infographic
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Using that highbrow source, Wiki, the might be some mileage in replacing the C-2 with the V-22.
They seem comparable for load carrying and palletised options might give extra capability to the LHAs.
More expensive? Hell yeah!
They seem comparable for load carrying and palletised options might give extra capability to the LHAs.
More expensive? Hell yeah!
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Bell V-280 Valor Video Youtube
'chopper2004' beat me with this info on another thread [ http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...280-valor.html ] but worthwhile repeating here for the future competion in it - perhaps.
Bell Unveils V-280 Valor Tiltrotor For Future Vertical Lift Program
By Colin Clark Published: April 10, 2013
Bell Unveils V-280 Valor Tiltrotor For Future Vertical Lift Program
VIDEO:
Bell Unveils V-280 Valor Tiltrotor For Future Vertical Lift Program
By Colin Clark Published: April 10, 2013
Bell Unveils V-280 Valor Tiltrotor For Future Vertical Lift Program
VIDEO:
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 10th Apr 2013 at 20:59. Reason: URL
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I very much doubt we would buy any for this sort of usage we're far too skint. It's almost nailed on that Crowsnest will be a Merlin based platform and as for refueling from the carrier it's not planned or budgeted for. The Americans would have to offer an incredible deal for it to happen which I can't really see occuring.
That and the MOD already ran a study about using a V22 as a platform when Crowsnest was still MASC.
That and the MOD already ran a study about using a V22 as a platform when Crowsnest was still MASC.
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However this time the V-22 is going to be trialled as an Air Refueller - never mentioned before - except as theory. Who knows what the follow on might be? The V-22 is gaining some traction as being 'safe & versatile'.
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 10th Apr 2013 at 21:36.
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Thats all well and good Spaz for the USMC and maybe the USN it could be a great asset to have.
However in terms of CVF it's a non starter right now and the surveillance kit is a vaporware solution. If the Vigilance pods ever go anyware (it'll take several years at least imho more that don't fit with the Seaking OSD) it's possible maybe that much further down the line something could happen.
I am willing to bet the MOD (UK) will delay an actual contract for Crowsnest until far too late to actually acheive a timely 2016 replacement for SeaKing AEW then in a blind panic (maybe) the Cerberous kit from Seaking will be hammered into some Merlin airframes as a cheaper solution to acheiving the capability.
However in terms of CVF it's a non starter right now and the surveillance kit is a vaporware solution. If the Vigilance pods ever go anyware (it'll take several years at least imho more that don't fit with the Seaking OSD) it's possible maybe that much further down the line something could happen.
I am willing to bet the MOD (UK) will delay an actual contract for Crowsnest until far too late to actually acheive a timely 2016 replacement for SeaKing AEW then in a blind panic (maybe) the Cerberous kit from Seaking will be hammered into some Merlin airframes as a cheaper solution to acheiving the capability.
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V-22 on HMS ARK ROYAL - EX AURIGA 2010
If money was no object V-22 would be a great addition / enabler for Carrier Strike either as COD, CROWSNEST or AAR for F-35B, however not likely in this current fiscal climate.
I had the pleasure of being on board the ARK in '10 when a V-22 landed on for VIPTAX; made for quite a site and along with Sea King, Lynx and Harrier GR9 it meant there were 4 vertical lift vehicles on deck.
All went well although there was a requirement to post fire fighting sentries on 2Deck Aft just in case the deck head became overheated due to the engine eflux on the fight deck.....
All in all quite impressive.
I'll try and post some pictures in due course.
FNS
I had the pleasure of being on board the ARK in '10 when a V-22 landed on for VIPTAX; made for quite a site and along with Sea King, Lynx and Harrier GR9 it meant there were 4 vertical lift vehicles on deck.
All went well although there was a requirement to post fire fighting sentries on 2Deck Aft just in case the deck head became overheated due to the engine eflux on the fight deck.....
All in all quite impressive.
I'll try and post some pictures in due course.
FNS
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Reducing V-22 Heat Effects on Steel Decks from BOING
"Myth: V-22 exhaust damages the flight decks of Navy ships
Fact: When the MV-22B nacelles are positioned vertically for takeoff, the engine exhaust gases are directed toward the flight deck. As a precautionary measure, flight deck portable heat shields were utilized aboard LSD and LPD class ships during the first MV-22B shipboard deployment. Subsequent testing and analysis determined that instead of these heat shields, a nacelle modulation technique was a more suitable and effective method to protect the flight deck. This nacelle modulation, wherein the nacelles are periodically rotated a small number of degrees, prevents heat build up in the deck plating and thus negates any chance of damage.”
http://www.boeing.com/ospreynews/201..._guidebook.pdf (3.7Mb)
Fact: When the MV-22B nacelles are positioned vertically for takeoff, the engine exhaust gases are directed toward the flight deck. As a precautionary measure, flight deck portable heat shields were utilized aboard LSD and LPD class ships during the first MV-22B shipboard deployment. Subsequent testing and analysis determined that instead of these heat shields, a nacelle modulation technique was a more suitable and effective method to protect the flight deck. This nacelle modulation, wherein the nacelles are periodically rotated a small number of degrees, prevents heat build up in the deck plating and thus negates any chance of damage.”
http://www.boeing.com/ospreynews/201..._guidebook.pdf (3.7Mb)
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 10th Apr 2013 at 23:33. Reason: Mb
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Although there wasn't an issue with the heat in the end, apart from the chains getting hot. Good think too for the Wardroom 2 deck cabins! We checked the deck and it was fine afterwards. The Osprey just rotated it's nacelles forward and back slightly to try and spread the heat around. SOP on LHD I believe.
Happy days, I have some phots somewhere too :-)
Whilst I can't see us affording it ourselves in the short term there's nothing to stop a USMC Sqn embarking to do it for us. The Corps certainly always enjoyed embarking on our CVS! (Prob to do with bar facilities and decent scran mostly!)
V-22 was too pricey for MASC, I thought Crowsnest was already settled as a Merlin with pods as a 'role fit'? Awful idea but prob the only option on a shoestring budget.
Happy days, I have some phots somewhere too :-)
Whilst I can't see us affording it ourselves in the short term there's nothing to stop a USMC Sqn embarking to do it for us. The Corps certainly always enjoyed embarking on our CVS! (Prob to do with bar facilities and decent scran mostly!)
V-22 was too pricey for MASC, I thought Crowsnest was already settled as a Merlin with pods as a 'role fit'? Awful idea but prob the only option on a shoestring budget.
Last edited by WhiteOvies; 11th Apr 2013 at 00:15. Reason: Further thoughts
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Lockmart are running trials this year with the vigilance pods but theres been no announcement of the actual contract. Plus Lockmart are the prime for HM2 so it'd be a bit dodgy if the solution was Merlin with role fit pods without a proper tendering process.
Lockmart are running trials this year with the vigilance pods but theres been no announcement of the actual contract. Plus Lockmart are the prime for HM2 so it'd be a bit dodgy if the solution was Merlin with role fit pods without a proper tendering process.
A nice idea, but how far can a V-22 carry how much fuel? Operational radius is given as 325 nm with 24 people (c 7000 pounds), which is not a whole lot for an F-35B with 13000-some pounds of gas, particularly when the F-35B will have to descend and slow down from optimum cruise to pick it up.
The Super Hornet can give away 15000 pounds of gas at a reasonable range (not sure what because I am not on top of my files) when set up as a 5-tank configuration.
The Super Hornet can give away 15000 pounds of gas at a reasonable range (not sure what because I am not on top of my files) when set up as a 5-tank configuration.
Last edited by LowObservable; 11th Apr 2013 at 15:00.
Then you become dependent upon a CVN which may not be available off the coast of Africa during a short notice NEO with no host nations willing to stage KC-130's. short of buddy tanking from another F-35 (assuming that's being looked at), the Osprey seems like a good idea.
Last edited by West Coast; 11th Apr 2013 at 15:16.
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V-22 Fuel Giveaway 17,290 lbs
It would make sense to top up a flight of four F-35Bs at the start of a mission at an optimum altitude for operation so that V-22 returns onboard for refuel and Bs continue on.
Originally found at: http://www.f-16.net/attachments/scre..._38_42_525.png [0.5Mb] (f-16.net) V-22 fuel giveaway is noted as 17,290 lbs with auxiliary tanks - graphic has details.
Click de thumbnail for larger sized .GIF: [0.2Mb]
Originally found at: http://www.f-16.net/attachments/scre..._38_42_525.png [0.5Mb] (f-16.net) V-22 fuel giveaway is noted as 17,290 lbs with auxiliary tanks - graphic has details.
Click de thumbnail for larger sized .GIF: [0.2Mb]
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 11th Apr 2013 at 18:39. Reason: .PNG size
It would make sense to top up a flight of four F-35Bs at the start of a mission at an optimum altitude for operation
Given the range and payload concessions that we've had to make to accommodate the STOVL/STOSL thing, I would say AAR is pretty much essential, not just sensible.
Given the range and payload concessions that we've had to make to accommodate the STOVL/STOSL thing, I would say AAR is pretty much essential, not just sensible.
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16 F-35Bs & 4 V-22s USMC Ops Potential
Air Refuel Kit also is GROUND refuel enabled so here is a thought... 
The Way Ahead with the F-35B: A Discussion with the Deputy Commandant for Aviation 11 April 2013
The Way Ahead with the F-35B: A Discussion with the Deputy Commandant for Aviation | SLDInfo
"2013-04-11 In a discussion in late March 2013, Lieutenant General Robert E. Schmidle Jr., the Marine Corps Deputy Commandant for Aviation (DCA), discussed the F-35B and the evolving Marine Corps approach to the aircraft...
...SLD: Another key aspect of the deployment of the aircraft with your other transformation aircraft – the Osprey – is that you can generate significant CONOPS innovations. What are some of the early thinking about such innovations?
Lt. General Schmidle: We are looking at a sixteen-ship F-35B formation flying with a four-ship Osprey formation.
The Ospreys could fly with the Bs to provide fuel and munitions for rearming wherever the F-35Bs can land. As you know, the F-35B can land in a wide variety of areas and as a result this gives us a very mobile strike force to operate throughout the battlespace. This kind of flexibility will be crucial in the years ahead."
The Way Ahead with the F-35B: A Discussion with the Deputy Commandant for Aviation 11 April 2013
The Way Ahead with the F-35B: A Discussion with the Deputy Commandant for Aviation | SLDInfo
"2013-04-11 In a discussion in late March 2013, Lieutenant General Robert E. Schmidle Jr., the Marine Corps Deputy Commandant for Aviation (DCA), discussed the F-35B and the evolving Marine Corps approach to the aircraft...
...SLD: Another key aspect of the deployment of the aircraft with your other transformation aircraft – the Osprey – is that you can generate significant CONOPS innovations. What are some of the early thinking about such innovations?
Lt. General Schmidle: We are looking at a sixteen-ship F-35B formation flying with a four-ship Osprey formation.
The Ospreys could fly with the Bs to provide fuel and munitions for rearming wherever the F-35Bs can land. As you know, the F-35B can land in a wide variety of areas and as a result this gives us a very mobile strike force to operate throughout the battlespace. This kind of flexibility will be crucial in the years ahead."
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 11th Apr 2013 at 21:05. Reason: xtra txt
That's a total fuel load-not a giveaway! Not sure about the burn for the Osprey but it is hard to see an offload of 4000lbs per AC for a 4 ship on even a short sortie. Question then is would the Rx have room? If the Osprey had to go further to allow room for the fuel then the offload available goes down. On the other hand, I can see value for the AC as a tanker to cover recoveries.
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The value of extra fuel is whatever it is. Perhaps there will be more ARF (AirReFuel) V-22s to offload gas. If anyone has the V-22 (ARF) fuel offload numbers then post them here please. Thanks.
...it is hard to see an offload of 4000lbs per AC for a 4 ship on even a short sortie...
Lt Gen Schmidle's 20-ship oorah-here-comes-the-mreenkaw formation seems rather fanciful - why on earth would such a gaggle lumber along at V-22 speeds? Expeditionary bases and forward sites are one thing - but a 20-ship? Come on....
I'm intrigued to learn that the F-35B pilot needs a $1million helmet to work with the gucci avionics. Best you don't drop that bonedome in the dirt, Lt Jarhead!
Last edited by BEagle; 11th Apr 2013 at 22:11.
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In my world according to Garp ARF was AirReFuel in an A4G (nun of yur poncy hyphens) back in the olden tymes. I guess the USMC invent lots of acronyms.