V-22 Osprey Air Refuel F-35Bs for CVFs? + other stuff
Bell Boeing has developed 430-gallon Mission Auxiliary Tanks (MATs); up to three can be inserted in the V-22’s cargo bay.
Some tanker capability......
Last edited by BEagle; 13th Aug 2013 at 09:47.
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'BEagle' in an effort to keep you as fully informed as possible this graphic appeared on page one of this thread [note 17,000 lbs of fuel approx cited as a 'giveaway']: 
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ml#post7788663
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...2.jpg:original
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ml#post7788663
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...2.jpg:original
Yes, I know - and what nonsense that first post was, as vascodagama cited.
Boeing (not F-16net) figures show an internal fuel plus 3 x MAT for the MV-22 as having a max fuel capacity (at 0.8 SG) of 9100 kg. Or 20000 lb.
Whether the aircraft will transfer any of its own internal fuel in the AAR role is not know. But a 'giveaway' of 17000 lb would leave only 3000 lb for the MV-22 to reach its AAR point, refuel its receivers and return. Transferring 4 x 4250 lb to receivers is going to take about 15 min minimum.
So how far can an MV-22 fly on 3000 lb, assuming that it takes off, transits to its AAR station, offloads 4 x 4250 lb and returns to land with normal reserves?
Not very far, I'd guess...... Or is it merely supposed to orbit the ship?
Boeing (not F-16net) figures show an internal fuel plus 3 x MAT for the MV-22 as having a max fuel capacity (at 0.8 SG) of 9100 kg. Or 20000 lb.
Whether the aircraft will transfer any of its own internal fuel in the AAR role is not know. But a 'giveaway' of 17000 lb would leave only 3000 lb for the MV-22 to reach its AAR point, refuel its receivers and return. Transferring 4 x 4250 lb to receivers is going to take about 15 min minimum.
So how far can an MV-22 fly on 3000 lb, assuming that it takes off, transits to its AAR station, offloads 4 x 4250 lb and returns to land with normal reserves?
Not very far, I'd guess...... Or is it merely supposed to orbit the ship?
Payload range charts are on page 59 of this...
http://www.bellhelicopter.com/MungoB..._GuideBook.pdf
Looks as if actual giveaway would be about 8000 lb/250nm. More with STOVL, but that introduces its own issues.
http://www.bellhelicopter.com/MungoB..._GuideBook.pdf
Looks as if actual giveaway would be about 8000 lb/250nm. More with STOVL, but that introduces its own issues.
' Or is it merely supposed to orbit the ship?'
Actually, that's not a bad idea. Often aircraft returning to the ship are hurting for gas and discover (again) that 'Outhouse' is the largest lie in naval aviation. By the time you close to the deck you start running short of gas; all it takes is some form of deck incident that blacks the deck and you're in trouble. Having a V22 with a bit of gas in the overhead as a strike package recovers 'just in case' is pretty sensible if the alternative is throwing your very expensive F35 into the drink for the want of a 1000kg or so of fuel....plus it could act as a plane guard at the same time.
I've spent, literally, hours in the Port/Starboard wait while the fish-heads and chock-heads sort their lives out - lucky we're rarely hurting for gas in a CH47. Though on more than one occasion folks have joined the wait, landed on for gas and been sent back to the wait to permit the planned deck cycle to take place. If you've never operated from a deck it's hard to appreciate the complexity....it's assuredly not a 'floating airfield'.
Actually, that's not a bad idea. Often aircraft returning to the ship are hurting for gas and discover (again) that 'Outhouse' is the largest lie in naval aviation. By the time you close to the deck you start running short of gas; all it takes is some form of deck incident that blacks the deck and you're in trouble. Having a V22 with a bit of gas in the overhead as a strike package recovers 'just in case' is pretty sensible if the alternative is throwing your very expensive F35 into the drink for the want of a 1000kg or so of fuel....plus it could act as a plane guard at the same time.
I've spent, literally, hours in the Port/Starboard wait while the fish-heads and chock-heads sort their lives out - lucky we're rarely hurting for gas in a CH47. Though on more than one occasion folks have joined the wait, landed on for gas and been sent back to the wait to permit the planned deck cycle to take place. If you've never operated from a deck it's hard to appreciate the complexity....it's assuredly not a 'floating airfield'.
Good points, Evalu8ter. But,
Er, hang on! I thought our F-35 fans keep telling us how inexpensive it's going to be.
if the alternative is throwing your very expensive F35 into the drink for the
want of a 1000kg or so of fuel
want of a 1000kg or so of fuel
Courtney,
I think the funniest 'joke' are the muppets saying that F-35 can replace the A-10....Replace the Viper? Yep, an expensive way of doing so, but credible. A-10? Come on - payload, loiter and survivability? That's before you get to the cost....
I think the funniest 'joke' are the muppets saying that F-35 can replace the A-10....Replace the Viper? Yep, an expensive way of doing so, but credible. A-10? Come on - payload, loiter and survivability? That's before you get to the cost....
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First V-22 Tanker Air Refuel Tests
Probably more news about the refueling tests soon enough?
F-35B Flies With Weapons; USS Wasp Testing Expanded Carrier Ops 21 Aug 2013 Colin Clark
F-35B Flies With Weapons; USS Wasp Testing Expanded Carrier Ops « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary
F-35B Flies With Weapons; USS Wasp Testing Expanded Carrier Ops 21 Aug 2013 Colin Clark
"...designed to deliver strike aircraft with the greatest range possible would pair 16 F-35Bs with six V-22 Ospreys equipped for drogue refueling, Schmidle says. The Marines have just finished the first V-22 refueling tests...."
So far, the tests are just to show that the drogue trails smoothly behind the V-22 (rather than thrashing around in the rotor wash like a landed eel) so I would not expect F-35B contacts soon. Jane's is calling an increase in the nominal radius from 450 to 600 nm (and those ranges are on very range-optimized profiles). Given V-22 payload and range that might be possible with one V-22 to two F-35s.
The advantage of this system would be that it would allow the LHD/A carrying 16 JSFs and four V-22 tankers (and lots of bored Marines playing video games) to operate at a similar standoff distance to the CV rather than going closer into the threat. On the downside you still don't have any AEW, which leaves you rather vulnerable to ASCM shots from the littoral, aircraft or fast attack craft like the 022 Houbei, and aside from the LHA-6/7 50000-ton mistakes, the amphibs are deficient in fuel and support volume for a JSF/V-22 wing.
The advantage of this system would be that it would allow the LHD/A carrying 16 JSFs and four V-22 tankers (and lots of bored Marines playing video games) to operate at a similar standoff distance to the CV rather than going closer into the threat. On the downside you still don't have any AEW, which leaves you rather vulnerable to ASCM shots from the littoral, aircraft or fast attack craft like the 022 Houbei, and aside from the LHA-6/7 50000-ton mistakes, the amphibs are deficient in fuel and support volume for a JSF/V-22 wing.
On the downside you still don't have any AEW, which leaves you rather vulnerable to ASCM shots from the littoral, aircraft or fast attack craft like the 022 Houbei, and aside from the LHA-6/7 50000-ton mistakes, the amphibs are deficient in fuel and support volume for a JSF/V-22 wing.
Granted, the E-2 is invaluable, but "zero AEW" isn't the state of play for a task force with AAW frigates and destroyers. The problem of ASCM's comes with the ones that are low observable themselves. AEW may not help you there either.
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V-22 12,000 lb fuel giveaway (depends on mission profile)
New Pics: MV-22, Super Hornet in Refueling Tests 03 Sep 2013 Amy Butler
New Pics: MV-22, Super Hornet in Refueling Tests
http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver...4217.Large.jpg
http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver...1621.Large.jpg
"...The industry team had looked at the concept of using the V-22 as an aerial refueler for years but the effort gained steam – and funding from corporate partners – at the beginning of the year, Sparks says. Prior to last week’s flight, the company validated the ability to extend and retract the refueling hose and drogue, a Cobham model also used by the Marine Corps’ KC-130 fleet. Also prior to the proximity flight, the team collected data on the behavior of the Super Hornet in the MV-22’s wake. “Pilots didn’t report any significant wake turbulence,” Sparks said, noting the feedback validated expectations based on prior modeling and earlier input from the pilot of a Cessna surrogate used to study the MV-22’s wake.
During the Aug. 29 test, the two aircraft were traveling at 210 kt. The high-speed version of the hose/drogue refueling system is designed to be deployed at 185 kt. and function up to 250 kt., Sparks says.
For that test, the V-22 was functioning in aircraft mode. Sparks says the company prioritized testing for the Super Hornet specifically to address concerns that the Pentagon could need more refuelers for high-speed receivers....
...The refueling system makes use of onboard tanks as well as a roll-on/roll-off bladder, Sparks says. The hose extends 90 ft., about 80 ft. from the end of the ramp of the MV-22. The operator must open the ramp to extend the refueling hose; once extended, the ramp is then raised back up with the top ramp door left open, Sparks says.
Depending on mission profile, the system can offload up to 12,000 lb. of fuel, Karika says.
The prototype design, used for last week’s test, included a refueling system operator station near the ramp, but Karika says this can be placed where the customer requires.
The aerial refueling concept grew out of technical work done for Marine operators to use the Osprey as a ground-based refueler for helicopters and vehicles. That concept was fielded in 2007 to support operations in Iraq."
During the Aug. 29 test, the two aircraft were traveling at 210 kt. The high-speed version of the hose/drogue refueling system is designed to be deployed at 185 kt. and function up to 250 kt., Sparks says.
For that test, the V-22 was functioning in aircraft mode. Sparks says the company prioritized testing for the Super Hornet specifically to address concerns that the Pentagon could need more refuelers for high-speed receivers....
...The refueling system makes use of onboard tanks as well as a roll-on/roll-off bladder, Sparks says. The hose extends 90 ft., about 80 ft. from the end of the ramp of the MV-22. The operator must open the ramp to extend the refueling hose; once extended, the ramp is then raised back up with the top ramp door left open, Sparks says.
Depending on mission profile, the system can offload up to 12,000 lb. of fuel, Karika says.
The prototype design, used for last week’s test, included a refueling system operator station near the ramp, but Karika says this can be placed where the customer requires.
The aerial refueling concept grew out of technical work done for Marine operators to use the Osprey as a ground-based refueler for helicopters and vehicles. That concept was fielded in 2007 to support operations in Iraq."
http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver...4217.Large.jpg
http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver...1621.Large.jpg
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V-22 Osprey PDF 2004
For the 'BEagle' comment above: "...Boeing (not F-16net) figures show an internal fuel plus 3 x MAT for the MV-22 as having a max fuel capacity (at 0.8 SG) of 9100 kg. Or 20000 lb...." about the graphic on page one of this thread at: http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ml#post7788663
Here is the original link to the 2004 PDF "V22 Easterly presentation Oct 14 2004.pdf" [ http://www.nps.edu/Academics/Institu...014%202004.pdf ] - which does not work now but same document can be found here:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=h...df&chrome=true
This PDF can be reprinted from there or downloaded from F-16.net now at:
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_download-id-18058.html (4.8Mb)
Title Page Text:
Navy V-22 Concept of Employment January 2004
Presented to US Naval War College 14 October, 2004 By Arnie Easterly V22 Business Development Bell Helicopter Textron
Developed for Bell/Boeing by Whitney, Bradley & Brown, Inc.1604 Spring Hill Rd. Suite-200 Vienna, VA 22182(703) 448-6081
An example of the refuel mission set with another to follow:
Here is the original link to the 2004 PDF "V22 Easterly presentation Oct 14 2004.pdf" [ http://www.nps.edu/Academics/Institu...014%202004.pdf ] - which does not work now but same document can be found here:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=h...df&chrome=true
This PDF can be reprinted from there or downloaded from F-16.net now at:
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_download-id-18058.html (4.8Mb)
Title Page Text:
Navy V-22 Concept of Employment January 2004
Presented to US Naval War College 14 October, 2004 By Arnie Easterly V22 Business Development Bell Helicopter Textron
Developed for Bell/Boeing by Whitney, Bradley & Brown, Inc.1604 Spring Hill Rd. Suite-200 Vienna, VA 22182(703) 448-6081
An example of the refuel mission set with another to follow:
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 4th Sep 2013 at 20:56. Reason: too early in the morning to be doing this shite
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I think, Spaz, that instead of promoting the questionable virtues of paper tigers, your time would be better spent learning Simplified Chinese.
Come to think of it, yours too JSF...
Come to think of it, yours too JSF...
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The team is hoping the U.S. Navy or Marine Corps will provide funding for additional testing........
Last edited by ORAC; 5th Sep 2013 at 06:48.
Note that both the CONOPS examples from the 2004 brief show refueling at 10,000 feet, and cases where that makes sense (recovery or CAS) because that's where the fighter is operating anyway.
Wonder (1) what is the max altitude at which I can refuel an FJ from the V-22 - without the former falling out of the sky, or the latter either falling to bits or using so much gas to get there/stay there that it has none left?
(2) How much gas do I then use climbing from that max altitude back to cruise-efficient altitude for the F/A-18?
I suspect that this stunt may be part of the desperate effort to foist the V-22 on the CV Navy as a replacement for the C-2.
Wonder (1) what is the max altitude at which I can refuel an FJ from the V-22 - without the former falling out of the sky, or the latter either falling to bits or using so much gas to get there/stay there that it has none left?
(2) How much gas do I then use climbing from that max altitude back to cruise-efficient altitude for the F/A-18?
I suspect that this stunt may be part of the desperate effort to foist the V-22 on the CV Navy as a replacement for the C-2.