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F-35 Up Close @ Nellis

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F-35 Up Close @ Nellis

Old 14th Mar 2013, 16:15
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F-35 Up Close @ Nellis

It certainly is an ugly bird ... you can now appreciate the comments on the poor 6 o'clock viz


Coff.
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 17:11
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My favourite Gen. Bogdan quotes on the visibility issue:

F-35 Production on Track, Program Chief Says 14 Mar 2013 By Claudette Roulo | American Forces Press Service

F-35 Production on Track, Program Chief Says

"...Bogdan said recent criticisms about technical issues and allegations of limited aft visibility are ill-informed. “I don't lose sleep at night over the technical issues on this program,” he said. There are known solutions for all of the known issues with the aircraft, he added.

“We have yet to fly a single air-to-air engagement with another F-35 or another airplane,” he said. “The airplane's not ready to do that. We're still doing basic training on the airplane, [and] we're still doing basic testing on the airplane. So for someone to assess that the visibility behind the airplane is such that it will 'get gunned down every time,' [is] a little premature."..."
___________

F-35: Quotes of the Day 13 Mar 2013 Barry Graff

http://whythef35.********.com.au/201...es-of-day.html

"I've pointed out the absurdity of a particular quote attributed to a "leaked memo" from the Director of the Operational Test and Evaluation Directorate to the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, i.e.:

Other sections of the report outline some of the flaws that make the cockpit unsafe for pilots:

“The out-of-cockpit visibility in the F-35A is less than other Air Force fighter aircraft The head rest is too large and will impede aft [rear] visibility and survivability during surface and air engagements. Aft visibility will get the pilot gunned [down] every time in dogfights."

Lieutenant General Bogden(sic), DoD's lead man on the F-35 program, was apparently hit with a question about this by someone in the media. His answer is priceless:

He pointed out the DAS system, would allow rear viewing (and below) and then said, “If some F-35 pilot out there is afraid of getting gunned every time, then we can have him fly C-12s.”

Of course a C-12 is the military of a civilian King Air. In terms of insulting a fighter pilot, I can't imagine a worse one. What Bogden effectively did is dismiss the criticism as just plain nonsense. That won't stop uniformed critics from still trying to use this as some sort of indicator of the aircraft's deficiencies, but, in fact, it is a red herring...."
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 17:41
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But at least he should admit that it is definitely fugly
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 17:50
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What Bogden effectively did is dismiss the criticism as just plain nonsense. That won't stop uniformed critics from still trying to use this as some sort of indicator of the aircraft's deficiencies, but, in fact, it is a red herring...."
The pilots quoted weren't picked to fly the F-35 evaluation of the street; their comments weren't included in the report without a lot of thought about the consequences; and the Director of the Operational Test and Evaluation Directorate wouldn't have sent a memo to the Vice JCS without even more thought.

For Bogden then to trash and dismiss the comments in such a fashion sends more alarm bells ringing than almost anything else I can imagine. Someone is panicking and trying to squash the report before it's taken up by someone in the Senate.
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 18:07
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"What? Me Worry?" Alfred E. Neumann quote.

U.S. pilots start F-35 training flights as report pans jet 07 Mar 2013 Andrea Shalal-Esa

U.S. starts F-35 training as report pans jet | World | News | Canmore Leader

“WASHINGTON — Some students in the U.S. Air Force’s F-35 fighter pilot school took their first flights on Wednesday [06 Mar 2013] in the new radar-evading jet as a report by the Pentagon’s chief tester found fault with early versions of the plane’s radar, pilot helmet & other systems…

...Defense officials said they were not surprised by the negative tone of the report given Gilmore’s views, but said it included no “showstoppers” that jeopardized the program, which must complete several more years of development before it moves into combat testing and is declared ready for operational use.

The report reviewed an “operational utility evaluation” conducted by the Air Force last year before it decided to start training seasoned pilots to fly the F-35 fighter. The training lasts 3 months and includes time in the classroom, on sophisticated simulators, and in the air. This year, the Air Force says it plans to train about 72 pilots & 711 mechanics to maintain the new planes. The first official class just completed the academic portion of their training & are now taking to the skies....

...The Air Force’s Air Education and Training Command, which approved the start of training in December, said it believed the training system was perfoming adequately and should continue.

Lockheed, the prime contractor on the F-35 program, said it agreed with the Air Force’s decision to start training pilots on the F-35, and said it was confident that the service was able to conduct safe and effective flight training operations. It said it would continue to refine the operating and tactical procedures for the jet as needed.

Joe DellaVedova, spokesman for the Pentagon’s F-35 program office, said Gilmore’s latest report was based on the Air Force’s report about its evaluation, which had found no reason to hold off on training experienced pilots to fly the new plane. He said the Air Force & F-35 program office already knew about the issues raised in the report & were working to resolve them....”
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 18:19
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The viz doesn't look anything like as good as an F14, F15, F16, F18, SHAR, GR9, Tiffy or A10 for that matter.

But does that make it a show-stopper? Looks a bit better than Tornado, F117and F4, A7, A6, Buccaneer, all of which were very successful.

It's obviously not ideal, but is this another case of "there's something that's not as good as it is on the F-whatever, it MUST be cancelled immediately!" outrage bus?
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 18:30
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"Looks better than a Buccaneer" ... I beg your pardon
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 18:42
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Stoopid mericans...mother russia has da looking-glass to see back



Last edited by JSFfan; 14th Mar 2013 at 18:44.
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 19:05
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F-35 JSF Distributed Aperture System (EO DAS)

F-35 JSF Distributed Aperture System (EO DAS) - YouTube

"Uploaded on Mar 19, 2010 Courtesy: Northrop Grumman
Northrop Grumman has developed the only 360 degree, spherical situational awareness system in the electro-optical distributed aperture system (DAS). The DAS surrounds the aircraft with a protective sphere of situational awareness. It warns the pilot of incoming aircraft and missile threats as well as providing day/night vision, fire control capability and precision tracking of wingmen/friendly aircraft for tactical maneuvering.

Designated the AN/AAQ-37, and comprising six electro-optical sensors, the full EO DAS will enhance the F-35's survivability and operational effectiveness by warning the pilot of incoming aircraft and missile threats, providing day/night vision and supporting the navigation function of the F-35's forward-looking infrared sensor.

The DAS provides: * Missile detection and tracking * Launch point detection * Situational awareness IRST & cueing * Weapons support * Day/night navigation

In addition to developing the EO DAS, Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems is supplying the F-35's AN/APG-81 advanced electronically scanned array (AESA) fire-control radar. The AESA radar is designed to enable the pilot to effectively engage air and ground targets at long range, while also providing outstanding situational awareness."

Last edited by SpazSinbad; 14th Mar 2013 at 19:07.
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 19:54
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"Looks better than a Buccaneer" ... I beg your pardon
As obviously nothing looks better than a Bucc, especially one in Sea Grey paint with Royal Navy written on it, I shall rephrase my point above ....

"visibility aft looks a bit better than..... etc"

Last edited by Not_a_boffin; 14th Mar 2013 at 19:56.
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 20:01
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Might be good if it worked like the Northrop YouTube video.

Then there’s the high-tech computer-linked helmet-mounted display system that will control these weapons (already in use with other aircraft and in other air forces)—classified as “deficient”. Doesn’t work. Why? “Expected capabilities that were not delivered” (35) include latency problems with the distributed aperture system (DAS) in the helmet-mounted video display. Latency—some call it ‘transport time’—is the time between aircraft sensors’ signal acquisition and its transmission and projection in readable format on the pilot’s helmet video display. Currently at .133 seconds, that time delay of over an eighth of a second then has to be added to the pilot’s additional physical response time of about .15 seconds if he or she is to react to the data displayed and launch a weapon. In dogfights with closing speeds of over 1000 knots, this cumulative delay of more than a quarter of a second can be potentially fatal, and the latency-derived .133 second margin of error in initial aim point stands as an unacceptable contributor to this dangerous combat deficiency. Then add in deficient “night vision acuity,” excessive jitter that degrades data and images, inconsistent bore sight alignment, distracting “green glow” seepage from other avionics, imagery and data unable to be recorded (35). So—those high-tech air-to-air missiles and guided bombs cannot even be launched.
When Money is No Object: the Strange Saga of the F-35 » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 20:08
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FWIW, the lack of rear vis has not been some sort of technological surprise. When was F-35 chosen after the fly off?

I want to understand: how is this all of a sudden a big issue? Engineering and design demands tradeoffs. Anyone familiar with aircraft ought to know this.
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 21:11
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For 'Bevo': (Apologies for my non-existent skills in translating Norwegian to English)

- It goes slowly forward 28 Feb 2012

Google Translate

"...Progress in technical development
After much work has now identified or fully developed solutions to all the known technical challenges on the plane. This includes the most talked about challenges that helmet, software development and the protection against lightning.

- We see that progress with the helmet is now so good that one is likely to return to a solution at the next major milestone in April, and it will then scrutinize backup solution began to work with last year. Lightning Protection has now agreed on a solution, and restrictions on flights in the storm will be repealed in 2015, while software version "2B" installed in the aircraft. This is the software the U.S. Marine Corps will be operational in 2015, and where shortly after the use of F-35 in crisp military operations if necessary. The development of software in general, where we previously saw a backlog is now collected, and the development of Block 2B software is now on track to be installed in 2015. This shows that the measures taken just months back, now performing well, says Klever...."

Another forum translation of the relevant phrase is: "...- We see that progress with the helmet is now so good that [they/we] are likely to go back to one solution at the next major milestone in April, and [they/we] will then scrap the backup solution which began its work last year...."

Last edited by SpazSinbad; 14th Mar 2013 at 21:12.
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 21:46
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If you think the F35 is ugly, remember what the Boeing entry to the competition looked like. That was surely the ugliest aircraft ever.
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 22:50
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Some extra EODAS features (there is a video on Utube also) might be handy for the others also.

F-35 device shows new capabilities 11 Feb 2013

Northrop Grumman reports success for F-35 Lightning device - UPI.com

"BALTIMORE, Feb. 11 (UPI) -- U.S. company Northrop Grumman reports that detection of hostile ground fire has been added to the capabilities of its Electro-Optical Distributed Aperture System.

The AN/AAQ-37 was designed for use by F-35 Lightning IIs for simultaneously detecting and tracking aircraft and missiles in every direction and for providing visual imagery for day or night navigation and targeting purposes.

Northrop said the new capability was demonstrated by the AN/AAQ-37 DAS while being flown aboard a test aircraft. The Distributed Aperture System detected and located tanks that were firing live rounds during preparations for a military exercise.

"Although hostile fire detection is not an F-35 requirement for the DAS, the system design makes it ideal for this mission," Northrop Grumman said. "This inherent capability enables DAS to harvest, process and deliver key battlespace information to ground forces and other aircraft autonomously, without the need for cueing or increasing pilot workload.

"The ability to gather this live fire data expands the mission possibilities of the sensor to include close air support and ground fire targeting."

In addition to detecting artillery, the system has also demonstrated a capability to simultaneously detect and pinpoint the location of rockets and anti-aircraft artillery fired in a wide area, Northrop said."
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Old 14th Mar 2013, 23:10
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Old 15th Mar 2013, 11:23
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Hmm, might be cheaper to put tha DAS on a drone with long dwell times ...
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Old 15th Mar 2013, 12:50
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People are missing the point here. Since the F-35 cannot outrun or outmaneuver any likely adversary in WVR, and is also outclassed in the weight and diversity of its air-to-air weaponry, knowing what is behind you is not useful, but merely depressing.

And having seen a version of the magic EODAS in action I can confirm that it detects birds and clouds very well. Civvy jets half a mile away, not so much.
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Old 15th Mar 2013, 16:37
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but it's HMD and missiles can
the f-35 isn't as good as a clean f-16, it's as good as a clean fa-18
current piloted sims is greater than LER 6:1 ..4 f-35 vs 8 red air
so das can't see an airliner at 1/2 a mile...seems like all your other facts

Last edited by JSFfan; 15th Mar 2013 at 17:08.
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Old 15th Mar 2013, 21:26
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If you're not already, JSFfan, you need to be in LM marketing. Ignore everything that's said around you, pick upon one point and call it stupid and then keep trotting out same, unproved figures. Excellent and totally convincing.
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