Airbus A400M as a maritime aircraft ?
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OK, I don't know the first thing about these type of aircraft but,
Maybe its time to get something a little unorthodox?
Performance
Maximum speed: 996 km/h (538 knots, 619 mph)
Cruise speed: 833 km/h (450 knots, 516 mph)
Range: 8,000 km (4,320 nm, 4,970 mi)
Service ceiling: 44,200 ft (13,520 m)
Armament
Bombs: 20,000+ lb (9,000+ kg)
Missiles: AGM-84 Harpoon, ASM-1C, AGM-65 Maverick
Sonobuoys: 30+ Pre-loaded, 70+ Deployable from inside
Other: MK-46 and Type 97 and new(G-RX5) torpedoes, mines, depth charges
Maybe its time to get something a little unorthodox?
Performance
Maximum speed: 996 km/h (538 knots, 619 mph)
Cruise speed: 833 km/h (450 knots, 516 mph)
Range: 8,000 km (4,320 nm, 4,970 mi)
Service ceiling: 44,200 ft (13,520 m)
Armament
Bombs: 20,000+ lb (9,000+ kg)
Missiles: AGM-84 Harpoon, ASM-1C, AGM-65 Maverick
Sonobuoys: 30+ Pre-loaded, 70+ Deployable from inside
Other: MK-46 and Type 97 and new(G-RX5) torpedoes, mines, depth charges
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There always options.
Thats also the risk that overspecification, overcommitment to the national industry and baseless optimism turns into another multi billion disaster..
Thats also the risk that overspecification, overcommitment to the national industry and baseless optimism turns into another multi billion disaster..
tanker, strategic transport, tactical transports used to be mutually incompatible roles, now the RAF has them on order
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Turning the cancelled BAe RJX into a military aircraft has always been an interesting option.
However no decision on a European MPA will be taken, however great the need.
They are more worried about contagion from Cyprus, and its possible exit from the Euro.
Although out of production. The A340-200 might fit the bill. It is in that large category the same as the A400M. Great range.
A340-200 aircraft: range, specifications | Airbus*| Airbus, a leading aircraft manufacturer
That Japanese aircraft looks interesting, is it photoshopped ? From the looks of it, the range and on station can't be that great.
A completely new airframe would be too expensive. Although would most likely be the best option.
How large should the aircraft be ?
Large enough to carry all the necessary bits. Have four engines, and a long loiter time on station. In flight refueling to extend its time on mission. Then that needs an onboard relief crew.
The Nimrod got most things right. Except for the people developing it. The Conservative Government started the programme for the MRA4 in 1992.
Somebody needed to get a grip !
This aircraft ticked most of the boxes in its day.
However no decision on a European MPA will be taken, however great the need.
They are more worried about contagion from Cyprus, and its possible exit from the Euro.
Although out of production. The A340-200 might fit the bill. It is in that large category the same as the A400M. Great range.
A340-200 aircraft: range, specifications | Airbus*| Airbus, a leading aircraft manufacturer
That Japanese aircraft looks interesting, is it photoshopped ? From the looks of it, the range and on station can't be that great.
A completely new airframe would be too expensive. Although would most likely be the best option.
How large should the aircraft be ?
Large enough to carry all the necessary bits. Have four engines, and a long loiter time on station. In flight refueling to extend its time on mission. Then that needs an onboard relief crew.
The Nimrod got most things right. Except for the people developing it. The Conservative Government started the programme for the MRA4 in 1992.
Somebody needed to get a grip !
This aircraft ticked most of the boxes in its day.
Last edited by Stuffy; 18th Mar 2013 at 12:30.
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Dave, that seems better than the P8 ?
With the devalued Japanese Yen, it could well be an option. :-
General characteristics
With the devalued Japanese Yen, it could well be an option. :-
General characteristics
- Crew: Flight: 2 Mission: 11
- Length: 38.0 m (124 ft 8 in)
- Wingspan: 35.4 m (114 ft 8 in)
- Height: 12.1 m (39 ft 4 in)
- Max. takeoff weight: 79,700 kg (176,000 lb)
- Powerplant: 4 × IHI Corporation XF7-10 turbofan, 13,500 lbs (60 kN) each
- Maximum speed: 996 km/h (538 knots, 619 mph)
- Cruise speed: 833 km/h (450 knots, 516 mph)
- Range: 8,000 km (4,320 nm, 4,970 mi)
- Service ceiling: 44,200 ft (13,520 m)
- Bombs: 20,000+ lb (9,000+ kg)
- Missiles: AGM-84 Harpoon, ASM-1C, AGM-65 Maverick
- Sonobuoys: 30+ Pre-loaded, 70+ Deployable from inside
- Other: MK-46 and Type 97 and new(G-RX5) torpedoes, mines, depth charges
- Radar: Toshiba, Active Electronically Scanned Array radar system
- Sonar: NEC, multi-static sound navigation system sound
- Anti-submarine systems:SHINKO ELECTRIC CO.LTD., Advanced combat direction system
- Other: Mitsubishi, Electronic countermeasures (CMD, RWR, MWS, ESM)
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OK, stuffed-up... to foolishly answer another of your uninformed comments... no, the Kawasaki P-1 is NOT "photoshopped"!
The first 2 production examples have been delivered:
Link to a larger image of one of the test examples firing ordnance (note the pylon between the inner port engine and the fuselage):
http://i.imgur.com/v5PUMIK.jpg
The first 2 production examples have been delivered:
Link to a larger image of one of the test examples firing ordnance (note the pylon between the inner port engine and the fuselage):
http://i.imgur.com/v5PUMIK.jpg
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Stuffy, I don't think 4 engines are required these days (and the A340 is enormous..) The Atlantic/P8 don't need (two) FOUR engines.. The euro concept I drew up has 2.5 engine, an APTU, (Boeing consdered for the 777NG) providing additional power during heavy take-offs, power for new directed energy weapons and as back-up if one engine fails far from the shore. Keeps the main engines decently light/ efficient. A CROR engine as sketched is 5% more efficient then a straight prop.
IMO a new Long range MPA can be smaller, but to fly far you need a significant airframe/wing. I used a cross section slightly larger then the double bubble Embraer Ejet as a compromise to provide space for large bays and nose radar.
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z...g?t=1311463771
IMO a new Long range MPA can be smaller, but to fly far you need a significant airframe/wing. I used a cross section slightly larger then the double bubble Embraer Ejet as a compromise to provide space for large bays and nose radar.
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z...g?t=1311463771
Last edited by keesje; 18th Mar 2013 at 15:33. Reason: four iso two engines :)
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Answers and solutions !
I don't see any answers or solutions from the alleged so-called informed experts on here ? (They probably work for Boeing).
Just snide comments and no proof that they actually know what they are talking about.
At least biggus and keesje have pointed out the problems and keesje has come up with some ideas along with davef68.
I think four engines are needed with long endurance. Keesje is happy with two.
As yet nobody has informed me why exactly the Nimrod MRA4 was cancelled.?
Why the moribund politicians of Europe are not addressing the problem?
What are the realistic options?
The Boeing P8 will not be available to the UK for some time yet.(as explained by biggus).
The rather elegant looking Kawasaki, will go to Japan first. Another wait.
What is to be done?
Answers and solutions please.
At least the Italians have thought about it:-
I don't see any answers or solutions from the alleged so-called informed experts on here ? (They probably work for Boeing).
Just snide comments and no proof that they actually know what they are talking about.
At least biggus and keesje have pointed out the problems and keesje has come up with some ideas along with davef68.
I think four engines are needed with long endurance. Keesje is happy with two.
As yet nobody has informed me why exactly the Nimrod MRA4 was cancelled.?
Why the moribund politicians of Europe are not addressing the problem?
What are the realistic options?
The Boeing P8 will not be available to the UK for some time yet.(as explained by biggus).
The rather elegant looking Kawasaki, will go to Japan first. Another wait.
What is to be done?
Answers and solutions please.
At least the Italians have thought about it:-
Last edited by Stuffy; 18th Mar 2013 at 15:06.
Somewhat out of context, and North is wrong in that RJ is not a UOR for a start.
Re the Italians - there is a difference between a military maritime aircraft and a Coastal/Sea control aircraft that is primarily concerned with surface search and identification (In the same way that the USCG uses the C-130). A UK military 'MPA' would be expected to pursue both surface and sub surface targets as well as SAR and all the other secondary roles mentioned above.
Re the Italians - there is a difference between a military maritime aircraft and a Coastal/Sea control aircraft that is primarily concerned with surface search and identification (In the same way that the USCG uses the C-130). A UK military 'MPA' would be expected to pursue both surface and sub surface targets as well as SAR and all the other secondary roles mentioned above.
Last edited by Davef68; 18th Mar 2013 at 15:29.
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More fuel for thoughts?
I think I heard Atlantique 2s (french MPAs) have 2 engines only. Does that fit?
[edit] did a quick homework thx to Wiki:
P-3 Orion - 4 engines
Max speed 761 kph
Ceiling 10,500 m
Range 8,940 km
Atlantique 2 - 2 engines
Max speed 650 kph
Ceiling 9,145 m
Range 8,000 km
P-8 Poseidon - 2 engines (jet)
Max speed 908 kph
Ceiling 12,500 m
Range 2,222 km
I think I heard Atlantique 2s (french MPAs) have 2 engines only. Does that fit?
[edit] did a quick homework thx to Wiki:
P-3 Orion - 4 engines
Max speed 761 kph
Ceiling 10,500 m
Range 8,940 km
Atlantique 2 - 2 engines
Max speed 650 kph
Ceiling 9,145 m
Range 8,000 km
P-8 Poseidon - 2 engines (jet)
Max speed 908 kph
Ceiling 12,500 m
Range 2,222 km
Last edited by AlphaZuluRomeo; 18th Mar 2013 at 16:26.
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Yes, out of context, but it demonstrates how the MPA situation will not be resolved.
They spent too much time and money on the Nimrod MRA4.
Having spent that amount, they should have endeavoured to get something out of it.
Now there is nothing.
They spent too much time and money on the Nimrod MRA4.
Having spent that amount, they should have endeavoured to get something out of it.
Now there is nothing.
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The Atlantique 2, is better than nothing.
I don't know how it measures up against the P3 Orion?
Assume the UK gets a few Orions from Florida or wherever.
The electronics would have to be updated.
The US marines got our Harriers on the cheap.
Rest assured, the Orions will cost a pretty penny.
Solutions anybody?
I don't know how it measures up against the P3 Orion?
Assume the UK gets a few Orions from Florida or wherever.
The electronics would have to be updated.
The US marines got our Harriers on the cheap.
Rest assured, the Orions will cost a pretty penny.
Solutions anybody?
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A squadron of "off the shelf" C295 MPAs to start with ASAP.
& Don't let the local industry modify them for all those special, unique requirements.
The price and delivery times would triple. Adjust & get them into service ASAP.
& Don't let the local industry modify them for all those special, unique requirements.
The price and delivery times would triple. Adjust & get them into service ASAP.
Last edited by keesje; 18th Mar 2013 at 16:41.
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keesje,
For once, I think that you might have something there!
I think that an issue might be that if the UK bought C295 then it would keep C295 and nothing else. Is that platform capable enough?
Stuffy,
We haven't stated why the MRA4 got cancelled because, as operators, we can find no valid strategic reason for it being binned!
Duncs
For once, I think that you might have something there!
I think that an issue might be that if the UK bought C295 then it would keep C295 and nothing else. Is that platform capable enough?
Stuffy,
We haven't stated why the MRA4 got cancelled because, as operators, we can find no valid strategic reason for it being binned!
Duncs
Last edited by Duncan D'Sorderlee; 18th Mar 2013 at 17:02.
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Duncan,
That is why I asked the question. I could not understand either.
As for the older Nimrods. If the US can keep the B-52 in service, seemingly forever.
Why couldn't we keep the Nimrods, until a suitable replacement were found?
Refurbishment would have employed people. Stupid politicians only care about expense accounts and posing on TV.
That is why I asked the question. I could not understand either.
As for the older Nimrods. If the US can keep the B-52 in service, seemingly forever.
Why couldn't we keep the Nimrods, until a suitable replacement were found?
Refurbishment would have employed people. Stupid politicians only care about expense accounts and posing on TV.
Last edited by Stuffy; 18th Mar 2013 at 17:22.
AZR:
P-8 Poseidon - 2 engines (jet)
Max speed 908 kph
Ceiling 12,500 m
Range 2,222 km
Can I clarify that range figure please? 4 hours on station at a range of 2,222km.
P-8 Poseidon - 2 engines (jet)
Max speed 908 kph
Ceiling 12,500 m
Range 2,222 km
Can I clarify that range figure please? 4 hours on station at a range of 2,222km.
Last edited by Mk 1; 18th Mar 2013 at 17:47.
Based on the Navy's web site, that appears to be the case.
1200 nm radius of action with a 4 hour loiter time.
Internal five-station weapons bay
four wing pylons
two centerline pylons
joint missiles, torpedoes and mines.
rotary reloadable, pneumatically controlled sonobuoy launcher
It's not your grandfather's MPA, and I didn't see in my brief investigation if any provision for air to air refueling had been included. I don't think it ever was. IMO, the USN and US DoD missed a trick on that one.
Interesting to consider how one would fit A400M into the MPA mission.
1200 nm radius of action with a 4 hour loiter time.
Internal five-station weapons bay
four wing pylons
two centerline pylons
joint missiles, torpedoes and mines.
rotary reloadable, pneumatically controlled sonobuoy launcher
It's not your grandfather's MPA, and I didn't see in my brief investigation if any provision for air to air refueling had been included. I don't think it ever was. IMO, the USN and US DoD missed a trick on that one.
Interesting to consider how one would fit A400M into the MPA mission.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 18th Mar 2013 at 21:38.