The Scottish Air Force
Thread Starter
Well, let's face it. It is now quite clear that the SNP are talking up their financial future in order to con the voters into supporting separation.
As was said on the Today Programme this morning, they are good at picking the years that show the spikes in the Scottish economy. All of this is exactly what I've been saying.
So back to the original question (remember what the thread is about?) about the size and shape of the Scottish Air Force. Doesn't look like they'll be able to afford what Salmond is spouting, does it?
Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Willie Rennie said the "buried document blows a crater" in the SNP's independence spending promises.
He added: "Publicly, the SNP talk about protecting the public sector after independence but behind closed doors they concede that public sector job cuts could be necessary to keep costs down.
"Even setting up something as fundamental as a tax collection system for an independent Scotland could cost us twice as much as Scotland's share of HMRC costs as part of the UK.
"The sums don't add up."
Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont insisted Mr Swinney was in denial over civil servant advice about the dangers of basing the plans on a "volatile and diminishing commodity like North Sea oil".
Source: BBC News - Scottish independence: SNP's Swinney admits to economic challengesHe added: "Publicly, the SNP talk about protecting the public sector after independence but behind closed doors they concede that public sector job cuts could be necessary to keep costs down.
"Even setting up something as fundamental as a tax collection system for an independent Scotland could cost us twice as much as Scotland's share of HMRC costs as part of the UK.
"The sums don't add up."
Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont insisted Mr Swinney was in denial over civil servant advice about the dangers of basing the plans on a "volatile and diminishing commodity like North Sea oil".
As was said on the Today Programme this morning, they are good at picking the years that show the spikes in the Scottish economy. All of this is exactly what I've been saying.
So back to the original question (remember what the thread is about?) about the size and shape of the Scottish Air Force. Doesn't look like they'll be able to afford what Salmond is spouting, does it?
Well, let's face it. It is now quite clear that the SNP are talking up their financial future in order to con the voters into supporting separation.
Now, getting back to your original question. What makes you think that Scotland wants an air force?
Last edited by melmothtw; 7th Mar 2013 at 08:55.
Ignoring cost for one moment, the problem is, there is no paperwork clearly stating what the SNP would like to see for defence post independance. We can speculate as much as we wish but I really would like to see some hard figures on the table, even if they are just aspirational. All I've had through my door so far is a leaflet telling me that if I vote 'yes' for independance, a new Scotland will suddenly become filthy rich and the streets will be paved with gold. Absolute bullsh1t, but simple propaganda for the naive, foolish or young to believe in.
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by melmothtw
And probably just as true that the UK establishment is talking down Scotland's financial future in order to con voters into not supporting separation
Originally Posted by melmothtw
What makes you think that Scotland wants an air force?
"The configuration of the army in Scotland, the mobile brigade, which is the outcome of the defence review, looks exactly like the configuration you'd want for a Scottish defence force - so that's one naval base, one aircraft base and a mobile armed brigade."
Because Salmond stated that he does, remember?
"The configuration of the army in Scotland, the mobile brigade, which is the outcome of the defence review, looks exactly like the configuration you'd want for a Scottish defence force - so that's one naval base, one aircraft base and a mobile armed brigade."
"The configuration of the army in Scotland, the mobile brigade, which is the outcome of the defence review, looks exactly like the configuration you'd want for a Scottish defence force - so that's one naval base, one aircraft base and a mobile armed brigade."
Thread Starter
That's a sound observation, Mel, and it's one of the things I'd love to hear other folk's opinions on. What they might want that the UK could offer and just what they might afford.
Quote:
"The configuration of the army in Scotland, the mobile brigade, which is the outcome of the defence review, looks exactly like the configuration you'd want for a Scottish defence force - so that's one naval base, one aircraft base and a mobile armed brigade."
Maybe he meant "a one aircraft base and a mobile armed brigadeer"??
"The configuration of the army in Scotland, the mobile brigade, which is the outcome of the defence review, looks exactly like the configuration you'd want for a Scottish defence force - so that's one naval base, one aircraft base and a mobile armed brigade."
Maybe he meant "a one aircraft base and a mobile armed brigadeer"??
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Hummingfrog said:
I'm not pro SNP but they have done more to draw in outside investment than the UK government has recently. They haven't really made too much noise about the oil (recently)and my understanding is that it would be proportionately shared between the UK and Scotland should independence happen.
Take a look at the other industries and whisky is the next big one people think of. When we're not pouring it into rivers we make a fair bit of cash from it for UK PLC. Also farming, forestry and tourism before we even get to renewable energy has been much more prolific in terms of development than the North Sea. Salmond knows the oil will run out, he's not daft even though people say different.
It is a perception that comes from south of the border that the Scots only think about the oil. It's wrong, there are many more irons in the fire.
It remains to be seen how Scotland and the rest of the UK will cope when the oil runs out but the SNP puts great emphasis on the oil wealth. It should be regarded as the icing on the cake but the underlying economy has to be able to continue when it runs out and the figures for 2011-12 show that the Scottish economy will suffer more than the UK as a whole.
Take a look at the other industries and whisky is the next big one people think of. When we're not pouring it into rivers we make a fair bit of cash from it for UK PLC. Also farming, forestry and tourism before we even get to renewable energy has been much more prolific in terms of development than the North Sea. Salmond knows the oil will run out, he's not daft even though people say different.
It is a perception that comes from south of the border that the Scots only think about the oil. It's wrong, there are many more irons in the fire.
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Correct you are
, please show evidence to back your claim - I know of no movement from Eire's young well educated citizens banging on westminster doors. To suggest that the country's current financial difficulties against the global down turn would be cause to abandon their independence is a staggering suggestion. Please do not attributed false claims - evidence please. Otherwise , you are guilty of the very sin you claim of the SNP.
I would never wish to see the day when Scotland's sons and daughters do not seek out a life beyond these shores. The Scots are an outward looking people it's in their blood - the contribution Scots have made to the modern world against the size of the country is truly staggering. One must only assume you hold the same view of other small countries such as Denmark, or New Zealand - how dare they exist as independent states. With respect to your claim of lack of talent - I beleive you have shown your true colours - could luck to you, use that vote wisely.
Last edited by TomJoad; 7th Mar 2013 at 18:58.
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OutlawPete
Only today Wee Eck stood up in Holyrood and said that Oil would be the great saviour of Scottish finances. He even said that there were £1.5 trillion pounds of retail value left. Notice he said retail - this is not what the Scottish treasury would get but it is a figure he bandies about a lot - hoping that people will assume that the £1.5 trillion is available for use by the Scottish Executive.
As I understand how the the oil industry is taxed, the treasury only get a small percentage of the retail value of the oil. Once the block license has been paid for the treasury gets Corporation tax, Petroleum revenue tax (PRT) and fuel duty at the pumps. I believe that PRT has been reduced/modified recently to encourage development of the more marginal fields.
The big players in the N Sea are slowly pulling out as returns on investment dwindle - eg BP selling the Forties to Talisman.
Oil is a valuable tax provider but as the saying goes " a dog is not just for Xmas it is for life" so "Independence is not just for the life span of oil - it is for EVER"
HF
They haven't really made too much noise about the oil (recently)
As I understand how the the oil industry is taxed, the treasury only get a small percentage of the retail value of the oil. Once the block license has been paid for the treasury gets Corporation tax, Petroleum revenue tax (PRT) and fuel duty at the pumps. I believe that PRT has been reduced/modified recently to encourage development of the more marginal fields.
The big players in the N Sea are slowly pulling out as returns on investment dwindle - eg BP selling the Forties to Talisman.
Oil is a valuable tax provider but as the saying goes " a dog is not just for Xmas it is for life" so "Independence is not just for the life span of oil - it is for EVER"
HF
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You really do appear to have a hang up on this oil thing and your pejorative references to Salmond indicate an underlying dogma. If the Scots were to vote for independence - which i do not believe they will - they will not do so because of oil. You are well of the mark with that line.
TomJoad
Who is suggesting that Eire abandons their independence you seem to have got that idea into your head from somewhere - certainly not my post which referred to their young people leaving Eire for England
Are you Ex Mil as you don't seem to understand banter - signified by the 
sign.
The quote from you stated that YOU didn't believe Scotland had the talent! See quote in blue!!
I was only, tongue in cheek, agreeing with you
HF
Read posts properly before attributing your thoughts to other posts
To suggest that the country's current financial difficulties against the global down turn would be cause to abandon their independence is a staggering suggestion.
yes but yet no mass movement as yet for Eire to repeal the 1922 Anglo Irish Treaty and Eire to to rejoin the UK as has been suggested
With respect to your claim of lack of talent - I beleive you have shown your true colours
sign.The quote from you stated that YOU didn't believe Scotland had the talent! See quote in blue!!
And of course no government of any future independent Scotland would look to manage the budget responsibly; the country just does not have the talent to do so
HF
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TomJoad
I went to a photographic exhibition in Melbourne whose subject was "The young people of Eire" It was heartbreaking as it told the story of how the recent crash suddenly exploded into the lives of the Irish. Each picture was of a person who was leaving Eire because they job had evaporated. Most were well educated and the theme of their stories always said how fast the economy had imploded. The interesting thing was that about 75% were coming to the UK for work while the rest were off to Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc
So while Eire may not be hammering on the doors of Westminster a fair proportion of their young well educated citizens are
HF
I went to a photographic exhibition in Melbourne whose subject was "The young people of Eire" It was heartbreaking as it told the story of how the recent crash suddenly exploded into the lives of the Irish. Each picture was of a person who was leaving Eire because they job had evaporated. Most were well educated and the theme of their stories always said how fast the economy had imploded. The interesting thing was that about 75% were coming to the UK for work while the rest were off to Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc
So while Eire may not be hammering on the doors of Westminster a fair proportion of their young well educated citizens are
HF
I introduced the premise that despite the economic downturn that Eire would nonetheless not be approaching the UK to repeal the 1922 treaty through which Eire gained independence. My premise being that economic performance is not such the persuasive determinant to the state of independence or maintenance of a political union that you are making
To which you countered that while Eire was not hammering on the doors of Wesminster her young educated people were. Clearly they are not.
You know that feeling when you have to explain a joke......and yes i am ex mil
And sticking wee smiley winky thumbs up chuckle emioticons dont make banter mate.
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Ok Hummingfrog, given that I am already in the No camp, convince me why I am right to be there from the UK perspective. In other words, explain to me what benefit the rest of the UK gets from Scotland's presence in the Union.
The politicians talk vaguely of "stronger together" and the leaflet posted through the door today spoke of "we help each other out". What is the tangible effect of these claims - why have successive UK governments all sought to retain Scotland in the Union if the country is such an economic drag.
Please no banter, visual, overt or otherwise latent - it is not translating
The politicians talk vaguely of "stronger together" and the leaflet posted through the door today spoke of "we help each other out". What is the tangible effect of these claims - why have successive UK governments all sought to retain Scotland in the Union if the country is such an economic drag.
Please no banter, visual, overt or otherwise latent - it is not translating
Last edited by TomJoad; 7th Mar 2013 at 20:14.
Thread Starter
Maybe time you guys with political axes to grind started your own thread on your favourite topic. Obviously not in the Mil Aircrew bit. But many thanks for your bitter, transmit-only bigotry. Great fun. Nearly time for the delete button.
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Care to explain please. Is it just because you do not have a shared opinion and only yours is relevant. Here is a suggestion, maybe its time for you to just ignore the posts that do not interest you: you know like grown ups do. Give it a go.
Last edited by TomJoad; 7th Mar 2013 at 20:32.