The Scottish Air Force
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Whether the Union prevails or not, coming out to vote is one thing, having an informed vote is another. Arguing here of course has a very slight chance of affecting one or two votes as it seems most have already got an entrenched position regardless of any debate.
For the other 61% it is essential that the pros and cons are set out impartially and accurately so there is a slight chance of making an informed rather than an emotional decision.
Where costs fall and on what are absolutely essential.
For the other 61% it is essential that the pros and cons are set out impartially and accurately so there is a slight chance of making an informed rather than an emotional decision.
Where costs fall and on what are absolutely essential.
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So you live in Scotland, newt but you'd sooner support the French by drinking brandy instead of whisky... attitudes like yours are feeding this independence bollock$.
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If Scotland does vote independence then what happens to all the Scottish cultural aspects/traditions/regalia etc that have been incorporated into the UK establishment and state fabric. Don't dismiss how much foreign revenue this brings to the UK by way of tourists and investment. The tourists love to see the
bagpipes, kilties etc at state occasions. I think the loss of such will be all to sad and hard to replace. It will shine a light on the how pallid English culture is- anything that tries to fill the gap will be seen as fabricated "disneyesque". I fear for the sight of Morris Dancing accompanying state occasions.
Putting aside the rights/wrongs of Scottish independence, after all it's their legitimate and democratic right to hold such a debate, I fear England will struggle to find its own identity which has long disappeared against the strong cultural identity of the celtic components of the UK. God forbid the City of London or the Home Counties are allowed to be our cultural image.I'm sure the great cities in the North will have their thoughts if you refer to them as English if it is solely represented by London and the South. Interesting times ahead. I guess we will be left asking the question when the Scots leave us is what is England.
bagpipes, kilties etc at state occasions. I think the loss of such will be all to sad and hard to replace. It will shine a light on the how pallid English culture is- anything that tries to fill the gap will be seen as fabricated "disneyesque". I fear for the sight of Morris Dancing accompanying state occasions.
Putting aside the rights/wrongs of Scottish independence, after all it's their legitimate and democratic right to hold such a debate, I fear England will struggle to find its own identity which has long disappeared against the strong cultural identity of the celtic components of the UK. God forbid the City of London or the Home Counties are allowed to be our cultural image.I'm sure the great cities in the North will have their thoughts if you refer to them as English if it is solely represented by London and the South. Interesting times ahead. I guess we will be left asking the question when the Scots leave us is what is England.
Last edited by TomJoad; 2nd Mar 2013 at 18:26.
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Perhaps it would be better if the rest of the UK were to be polled to determine whether they want to continue in a union including Scotland?
Just a thought :-)
Just a thought :-)
TomJoad,
Your question "what is England?" is a valid one, irrespective of what happens with regards to independence for Scotland. I suggest a stroll down many of the main roads in the center of London would answer the question.
However, I feel I should point out that many of the iconic symbols of Scottish heritage were actually highly exaggerated, in terms of their significance and popular usage, at the time of the explosion of Victorian tourism.
If Scotland becomes independent why can't bagpipes still be used at English events? The King of Jordan introduced them to his armed forces because he liked them, why shouldn't the English continue to use them? Why does the flag have to be changed - Scotland doesn't have intellectual property rights on the cross of St Andrew.
Your question "what is England?" is a valid one, irrespective of what happens with regards to independence for Scotland. I suggest a stroll down many of the main roads in the center of London would answer the question.
However, I feel I should point out that many of the iconic symbols of Scottish heritage were actually highly exaggerated, in terms of their significance and popular usage, at the time of the explosion of Victorian tourism.
If Scotland becomes independent why can't bagpipes still be used at English events? The King of Jordan introduced them to his armed forces because he liked them, why shouldn't the English continue to use them? Why does the flag have to be changed - Scotland doesn't have intellectual property rights on the cross of St Andrew.
Last edited by Biggus; 2nd Mar 2013 at 20:18.
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Great job in answering the question, guys.
CM, I think you'll find an earlier thread on this that claimed that the new Scottish nation would be entitled to 26 fast jets. Even assuming that the remainder of the UK handed over, let's say, 26 Tornados, what the hell would they do with them? It's a big squadron, but a tiny force. Prbably not a viable one. Even more importantis what they might want them for. I know NATO is loving its recent expansionism, but I do wonder if Scotland, or more correctly the new Scottish government, would ever want to involved in any kind of OOA ops that would require such a force. I see a more pacifist approach to world affairs. Who knows.
They;d need a big organisation to back that up and I doubt the new nation, should it happen, would have the will to spend that kind of money on military capability.
To go with the huge thread drift, no, it won't happen anyway.
CM, I think you'll find an earlier thread on this that claimed that the new Scottish nation would be entitled to 26 fast jets. Even assuming that the remainder of the UK handed over, let's say, 26 Tornados, what the hell would they do with them? It's a big squadron, but a tiny force. Prbably not a viable one. Even more importantis what they might want them for. I know NATO is loving its recent expansionism, but I do wonder if Scotland, or more correctly the new Scottish government, would ever want to involved in any kind of OOA ops that would require such a force. I see a more pacifist approach to world affairs. Who knows.
They;d need a big organisation to back that up and I doubt the new nation, should it happen, would have the will to spend that kind of money on military capability.
To go with the huge thread drift, no, it won't happen anyway.
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Originally Posted by itwasme
Perhaps it would be better if the rest of the UK were to be polled to determine whether they want to continue in a union including Scotland?
Just a thought :-)
Just a thought :-)
Like I said earlier Courtney Mil, don't expect sensible debate on your original question. As I originally thought...this will turn into yet another Jock-bashing thread.
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Yeah, points well taken. The only bashing to to be done in February and March are on the Rugby pitches. IMHO. But I do like the flying haggis.
M2, thank you. So what is the answer?
M2, thank you. So what is the answer?
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I agree with Kluseu on this one - the solution to the Tories' Scottish problem i.e. no one north of the border votes for them is to chin off the Scots and, hey presto, Labour will never get in dahn sarf again. Whose to blame for this? Labour - they stoked the fires of Scottish Nationalism to try and gain a tactical advantage at Westminster and now it's come round to bite them in the arse... hard!
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One of the odd things about all this is that the whole Scottish independence debate appears to raise stronger views in England than in Scotland. On reflection there's good reason why this might be. Underlying much of the debate is a sense that since 1999, people living in England have had a poorer deal in terms of self determination than people in Scotland, Wales or NI.
There are two elements to this. The first is that MPs in Westminster representing Scottish constituencies can and do vote on issues that only affect England (such as health or education), and clearly that is wholly wrong. I believe that SNP MPs in Westminster refrain from doing so: I believe that those of other parties do not. If Scotland stays part of the UK after 2014, then that problem must be addressed. Why should my West Lothian MP have a say in, for example, hospital spending that will only affect England, and not their own constituents because hospital spending in Scotand is a devolved matter for the Scottish government? They shouldn't.
The second is that moves to a regional level of goverment in England, which were meant to run alongside devolution for Scotland, Wales and NI, have come to nothing. There were grand plans around the millennium to do away with a tier of local government (most of England bizarrely has one to spare) and replace it with Regional Assemblies and Regional Development Agencies. Nothing ever came of the former, while the latter, which were set up, were abolished in early 2012. Meanwhile, Government Offices for the Regions, which had ensured that a degree of regional awareness informed Whitehall decision making, were abolished in 2011. In effect, power in England is more centralised right now than it has been at any time in several decades.
If I lived in an English region and saw devolution moving ahead in Scotland, Wales and NI, and the Scots being offered a choice on nationhood, I think I'd be pretty cheesed off too. The answer to this is not to stop doing things right in the devolved administrations: it is to start to do them right in England.
Er... meanwhile, on the military aviation front, there is a legitimate debate to be had about the implications of a possible "yes" vote for independence in Scotland. But it would be more compellingly argued if it were not set against a background in which England has a serious democratic deficit when compared to the other nations within the UK. Why do you all put up with it?
There are two elements to this. The first is that MPs in Westminster representing Scottish constituencies can and do vote on issues that only affect England (such as health or education), and clearly that is wholly wrong. I believe that SNP MPs in Westminster refrain from doing so: I believe that those of other parties do not. If Scotland stays part of the UK after 2014, then that problem must be addressed. Why should my West Lothian MP have a say in, for example, hospital spending that will only affect England, and not their own constituents because hospital spending in Scotand is a devolved matter for the Scottish government? They shouldn't.
The second is that moves to a regional level of goverment in England, which were meant to run alongside devolution for Scotland, Wales and NI, have come to nothing. There were grand plans around the millennium to do away with a tier of local government (most of England bizarrely has one to spare) and replace it with Regional Assemblies and Regional Development Agencies. Nothing ever came of the former, while the latter, which were set up, were abolished in early 2012. Meanwhile, Government Offices for the Regions, which had ensured that a degree of regional awareness informed Whitehall decision making, were abolished in 2011. In effect, power in England is more centralised right now than it has been at any time in several decades.
If I lived in an English region and saw devolution moving ahead in Scotland, Wales and NI, and the Scots being offered a choice on nationhood, I think I'd be pretty cheesed off too. The answer to this is not to stop doing things right in the devolved administrations: it is to start to do them right in England.
Er... meanwhile, on the military aviation front, there is a legitimate debate to be had about the implications of a possible "yes" vote for independence in Scotland. But it would be more compellingly argued if it were not set against a background in which England has a serious democratic deficit when compared to the other nations within the UK. Why do you all put up with it?
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meanwhile, on the military aviation front, there is a legitimate debate to be had about the implications of a possible "yes" vote for independence in Scotland.
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"One of the odd things about all this is that the whole Scottish independence debate appears to raise stronger views in England than in Scotland."
Agreed, which makes me wonder what the Scots have done to pi$$ them off so much?
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Agreed, which makes me wonder what the Scots have done to pi$$ them off so much?
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At last some sensible input from north of the border! My opinion is that when the Scots realise the true implications of separating (and the cost) they won't vote for it. They're canny folk after all.