The Scottish Air Force
current SNP defence policy is called 'High North' - its a focus on maritime security capability in the north east Atlantic and up to the Arctic, its looking for NATO membership, but more as a way to get defence co-operation with the Nordic states/Iceland than any great love of NATO itself.
the 'no nukes' thing is emphatic, but the SNP politicos do understand the practical issues around relocating the SSBN's to Devonport, and they also understand that in the event of the RN having to relocate the SSBN's, the UK Govt is not going to be interested in keeping Faslane open as a joint facility.
they may be open to a deal when the public switch on to the number of civil jobs, and military incomes, that will be lost when the whole of RN Clyde closes, but that would have to be post-referendum rather than before.
they also get that without a UK-Scotland defence treaty that includes the SSBN's being based on the Clyde, and probably the RAF staying at Lossiemouth, the RN will not be giving orders for Type 26 Frigates to yards on the Clyde...
in land terms their policy/inclination makes Ireland look wildly interventionist - how they intend to square that with the professed policy to retain/re-muster the old Scottish Regiments and pay for High North is something of a mystery.
the 'no nukes' thing is emphatic, but the SNP politicos do understand the practical issues around relocating the SSBN's to Devonport, and they also understand that in the event of the RN having to relocate the SSBN's, the UK Govt is not going to be interested in keeping Faslane open as a joint facility.
they may be open to a deal when the public switch on to the number of civil jobs, and military incomes, that will be lost when the whole of RN Clyde closes, but that would have to be post-referendum rather than before.
they also get that without a UK-Scotland defence treaty that includes the SSBN's being based on the Clyde, and probably the RAF staying at Lossiemouth, the RN will not be giving orders for Type 26 Frigates to yards on the Clyde...
in land terms their policy/inclination makes Ireland look wildly interventionist - how they intend to square that with the professed policy to retain/re-muster the old Scottish Regiments and pay for High North is something of a mystery.
Easy Street,
no, no forced transfers are on the cards - as Failed_Scopie says, appetite within HM AF for transfer to a Scottish AF is about zero, SNP know that and have no interest whatsoever in the media being full of 'forced to serve a country i don't want to' stories. the cynical might also suggest that if no one wants to be in a new Scottish AF, the politicos would have a superb excuse to not have a military, and they could then divert spending to parish pump vote rigging, err.. i mean regeneration projects in less developed constituancies.
also worth noting that as Scotland would retain HMQ as head of state, no new oath would be needed, it'd just be a change of middle-management.
no, no forced transfers are on the cards - as Failed_Scopie says, appetite within HM AF for transfer to a Scottish AF is about zero, SNP know that and have no interest whatsoever in the media being full of 'forced to serve a country i don't want to' stories. the cynical might also suggest that if no one wants to be in a new Scottish AF, the politicos would have a superb excuse to not have a military, and they could then divert spending to parish pump vote rigging, err.. i mean regeneration projects in less developed constituancies.
also worth noting that as Scotland would retain HMQ as head of state, no new oath would be needed, it'd just be a change of middle-management.
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The policy of keeping HMQ as head of state is, in my opinion, a sop to the undecided and as soon as Salmond got his independence, God forbid, this would be reversed. Don't forget the SNP is a left-wing republican party.
LP,
the SNP is a vehicle for independence, it has left wing republicans within it, it has right wing libertarians in it, it has, in my political lifetime, been a left wing republican party, a right wing free market, isolationist party, a euro-fedealist republican party, a soft right republican party and a soft left monarchist party.
i'm 38.
Salmond et al will present any box of policies they believe will tempt the votors to vote for independence - hence the mad scrabble for a defence policy when polling showed it was a major concern of the public, and Salmonds' apparent inability to use the words 'Ireland', 'Iceland' and 'arc of prosperity' since 2008/9.
a number of the people i know who are on the fringe of the SNP believe it will not survive long post independence - independence is all it exists for, and it has no real core/shared ideology past that. they think it will, in time, fracture into broadly the same ideological parties as exist down south, and as has been mentioned, will probably have to deal with regionalisation - Lerwick being as far from Edinburgh as Edinburgh is from London, and Lerwick likes neither...
the SNP is a vehicle for independence, it has left wing republicans within it, it has right wing libertarians in it, it has, in my political lifetime, been a left wing republican party, a right wing free market, isolationist party, a euro-fedealist republican party, a soft right republican party and a soft left monarchist party.
i'm 38.
Salmond et al will present any box of policies they believe will tempt the votors to vote for independence - hence the mad scrabble for a defence policy when polling showed it was a major concern of the public, and Salmonds' apparent inability to use the words 'Ireland', 'Iceland' and 'arc of prosperity' since 2008/9.
a number of the people i know who are on the fringe of the SNP believe it will not survive long post independence - independence is all it exists for, and it has no real core/shared ideology past that. they think it will, in time, fracture into broadly the same ideological parties as exist down south, and as has been mentioned, will probably have to deal with regionalisation - Lerwick being as far from Edinburgh as Edinburgh is from London, and Lerwick likes neither...
Not Scotland - just a few power-hungry politicians determined to get their snouts into the trough.
It has nothing at all to do with any kind of reality.
I hadn't realised that in some eyes the question of Scottish independence is only open to being discussed north of the border.
It has nothing at all to do with any kind of reality. I hadn't realised that in some eyes the question of Scottish independence is only open to being discussed north of the border.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I saw Yes Prime Minister last night and the section covering Scottish Independence was a classic.
Robbie Coltrane was playing brilliantly against Jim Hacker. Oil - the BRITISH oil revenue would be divided against population numbers. Scotland to get 8%. BRITISH national debt to be similarly split. Scotland to get something like £88bn (may be £880bn) a large number anyway. Whitehall monies enabling free university education and free prescriptions would stop. He just kept on piling on the agony. Defence wasn't mentioned but in reality there are all those less obvious areas, in the Air Force alone, AMTC, OASC, Officer Training, EFTS, FTS, Airmen training and trade training, etc etc. All these second tier expenditures would all need to be funded by agreement or done in croft.
Robbie Coltrane was playing brilliantly against Jim Hacker. Oil - the BRITISH oil revenue would be divided against population numbers. Scotland to get 8%. BRITISH national debt to be similarly split. Scotland to get something like £88bn (may be £880bn) a large number anyway. Whitehall monies enabling free university education and free prescriptions would stop. He just kept on piling on the agony. Defence wasn't mentioned but in reality there are all those less obvious areas, in the Air Force alone, AMTC, OASC, Officer Training, EFTS, FTS, Airmen training and trade training, etc etc. All these second tier expenditures would all need to be funded by agreement or done in croft.
"another thread designed to give Scotland a kicking by the bigotted"
Ever thought they might deserve it after voting in a complete load of numpties to represent them? They have no idea how separation is going to work or what will happen after the vote. Many believe it will all be settled a matter of months after the vote! Wrong! It will take years of negotiation for Scotland and the UK to sort out the mess!! All at extra cost and uncertainty for the tax payers ie you and me!
All because Alex wants to be president and not first minister!!
Now where is that bottle of brandy to steady my nerves?
Notice I said brandy and not whisky. Would rather support the French these days!
Ever thought they might deserve it after voting in a complete load of numpties to represent them? They have no idea how separation is going to work or what will happen after the vote. Many believe it will all be settled a matter of months after the vote! Wrong! It will take years of negotiation for Scotland and the UK to sort out the mess!! All at extra cost and uncertainty for the tax payers ie you and me!
All because Alex wants to be president and not first minister!!
Now where is that bottle of brandy to steady my nerves?
Notice I said brandy and not whisky. Would rather support the French these days!
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Newt ...
"Separation" ... The Quadrantal Rule is to change north of the boarder as well ? ... civilisation is coming to an end my friend
I know ... hat, coat, gloves ... Door !
"Separation" ... The Quadrantal Rule is to change north of the boarder as well ? ... civilisation is coming to an end my friend
I know ... hat, coat, gloves ... Door !
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Anyway ... Back to Courtney's OP ...
A couple of Squadrons of these might be sufficient
That's the ADV Flying Haggis !
Expecting incoming ...
I know ... Hat, coat, gloves ... Revolving door
A couple of Squadrons of these might be sufficient
That's the ADV Flying Haggis !
Expecting incoming ...
I know ... Hat, coat, gloves ... Revolving door
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These threads do seem to generate more heat than light.
For those actually interested in the background, wide ranging Scottish devolution came into being in 1999 when the Scottish Parliament reconvened after a gap of 292 years. Since then we've run our own transport, education, health and various other areas of policy. The main areas of policy retained at the UK level in Westminster are foreign affairs, tax, defence, benefits and employment policy.
The question that will be put in the table in Autumn next year is whether Scots want to live in an independent country.
It's difficult to say which way this vote will go. The trend over the past decade has been for the Scottish National Party to become ever more popular in elections for the Scottish Parliament. As a result they were able to form a minority government in 2007, and took an overall majority in the 2011 election: despite the fact that the Scottish electoral system, which is a complex form of PR, was explicitly desgned to prevent any one party ever getting enough seats to gain an overall majority.
The SNP have been so popular because (a) they are not Conservative, Labour or Lib Dem, and (b) because they've proved to be a fairly moderate, common sense and effective government in difficult times. And certainly far more moderate, common sense, and effective than the UK government has appeared to be on a very wide range of issues.
It would be wrong to say that the electoral popularity of the SNP will necessarily translate into a "yes" vote for independence. The SNP are certainly trying to bring this about. And it seems that the other parties are so inept in their approach to the independence debate that they are also recruiting "yes" votes when they say they want the opposite to happen. A recent mock referendum among some students at Glasgow University voted fairly heavily aganst independence, but how significant that is depends mainly on whether you want to believe the outcome of the real referendum will be "yes" or "no".
Time will tell. The really big outstanding issues are defence, where, amongst other awkwardnesses including some highlighted on this forum, is that the SNP has a non-nuclear stance even though thousands of jobs depend on the submarine bases on the Clyde; and Europe, where opinions are divided about whether an independent Scotland would automatically become a member of the EU, or not.
Cameron seriously muddied the waters on this last point when he talked of a UK referendum on EU membership after the next UK election: as a result independence may prove Scotland's best chance of staying on the EU. And he and his cronies are doing everything in their power to govern so badly they appear to be trying to force Scots to vote "yes", simply to remove the taint of rule from Eton. If the 2014 Scottish referendum does emerged with a "yes" for independence, then it seems clear that Cameron and his government will have done far more to bring it about than Salmond and his government...
Indeed, one plausible theory for the groteque ineptness of the current UK government's approach to the referendum is that Cameron actually wants a "yes" vote. As Scots have increasingly voted in Westminster elections for anyone but the Conservatives, Cameron's best, perhaps only, chance of winning the 2015 Westminster general election would be for those living in Scotland not to vote in that election, which would have to be a consequence of a "yes" vote in the independence referendum the previous year.
For those actually interested in the background, wide ranging Scottish devolution came into being in 1999 when the Scottish Parliament reconvened after a gap of 292 years. Since then we've run our own transport, education, health and various other areas of policy. The main areas of policy retained at the UK level in Westminster are foreign affairs, tax, defence, benefits and employment policy.
The question that will be put in the table in Autumn next year is whether Scots want to live in an independent country.
It's difficult to say which way this vote will go. The trend over the past decade has been for the Scottish National Party to become ever more popular in elections for the Scottish Parliament. As a result they were able to form a minority government in 2007, and took an overall majority in the 2011 election: despite the fact that the Scottish electoral system, which is a complex form of PR, was explicitly desgned to prevent any one party ever getting enough seats to gain an overall majority.
The SNP have been so popular because (a) they are not Conservative, Labour or Lib Dem, and (b) because they've proved to be a fairly moderate, common sense and effective government in difficult times. And certainly far more moderate, common sense, and effective than the UK government has appeared to be on a very wide range of issues.
It would be wrong to say that the electoral popularity of the SNP will necessarily translate into a "yes" vote for independence. The SNP are certainly trying to bring this about. And it seems that the other parties are so inept in their approach to the independence debate that they are also recruiting "yes" votes when they say they want the opposite to happen. A recent mock referendum among some students at Glasgow University voted fairly heavily aganst independence, but how significant that is depends mainly on whether you want to believe the outcome of the real referendum will be "yes" or "no".
Time will tell. The really big outstanding issues are defence, where, amongst other awkwardnesses including some highlighted on this forum, is that the SNP has a non-nuclear stance even though thousands of jobs depend on the submarine bases on the Clyde; and Europe, where opinions are divided about whether an independent Scotland would automatically become a member of the EU, or not.
Cameron seriously muddied the waters on this last point when he talked of a UK referendum on EU membership after the next UK election: as a result independence may prove Scotland's best chance of staying on the EU. And he and his cronies are doing everything in their power to govern so badly they appear to be trying to force Scots to vote "yes", simply to remove the taint of rule from Eton. If the 2014 Scottish referendum does emerged with a "yes" for independence, then it seems clear that Cameron and his government will have done far more to bring it about than Salmond and his government...
Indeed, one plausible theory for the groteque ineptness of the current UK government's approach to the referendum is that Cameron actually wants a "yes" vote. As Scots have increasingly voted in Westminster elections for anyone but the Conservatives, Cameron's best, perhaps only, chance of winning the 2015 Westminster general election would be for those living in Scotland not to vote in that election, which would have to be a consequence of a "yes" vote in the independence referendum the previous year.
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"Ever thought they might deserve it after voting in a complete load of numpties to represent them?"
Sorry, do you live in Scotland? Its not a bad place to be to be honest, free tertiary education, lots of overseas investment and (speaking as someone who resides in the north east) a fairly robust economy. Aberdeen is awash with cash and has virtually shrugged off this recession.
As for voting in numpties...have the current occupants of number 10 been everything they promised? I think not.
I, along with 99% of the people I know do not want independence for Scotland. Inflamatory threads like this and the "banter" that they evoke do nothing positive and merely allow the bigotted opinions of narrowminded people some bandwith.
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Sorry, do you live in Scotland? Its not a bad place to be to be honest, free tertiary education, lots of overseas investment and (speaking as someone who resides in the north east) a fairly robust economy. Aberdeen is awash with cash and has virtually shrugged off this recession.
As for voting in numpties...have the current occupants of number 10 been everything they promised? I think not.
I, along with 99% of the people I know do not want independence for Scotland. Inflamatory threads like this and the "banter" that they evoke do nothing positive and merely allow the bigotted opinions of narrowminded people some bandwith.
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Thread Starter
Interesting, but my question is what will happen about dividing up military assets (mostly aviation). And what is a practical force size of any of those assets?
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BBC News - How do Danes defend themselves?
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As a point for debate Courtney, your question is valid in a mature debate.
But it's also unnecessary. The union will prevail, I have no doubt about that.
My point is, "banter" aside, many of the posters on here don't think it's personal to have a go at a collective group of people because a minority are campaigning for something that no one (with any sense) wants.
Well it is personal, especially as many of them aren't joking. They mean it.
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But it's also unnecessary. The union will prevail, I have no doubt about that.
My point is, "banter" aside, many of the posters on here don't think it's personal to have a go at a collective group of people because a minority are campaigning for something that no one (with any sense) wants.
Well it is personal, especially as many of them aren't joking. They mean it.
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Actually Outlaw......I do live in Scotland and feel perfectly justified to comment!
The union will only prevail if everyone comes out to vote! There are too many people who look at the polls which state that there is only 29 percent in favour. If they stay at home then the yes vote may still win the day!
The union will only prevail if everyone comes out to vote! There are too many people who look at the polls which state that there is only 29 percent in favour. If they stay at home then the yes vote may still win the day!