Close Air Support questions - Fire Strike 7 / 9
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: australia
Age: 51
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Close Air Support questions - Fire Strike 7 / 9
Just wondering if someone could verify for me the use of the term "tipping in" when performing CAS.
The book Fire Strike 7/9 seems to reference it a lot when the pilot is turning to attack, just curious if this is a standard term used in CAS.
The book Fire Strike 7/9 seems to reference it a lot when the pilot is turning to attack, just curious if this is a standard term used in CAS.
Yup, used all the time. A lot of CAS is started from an orbit, so "tipping in" refers to over banking a bit so you can face up to the target and start an attack run. Used commonly on every aircraft I've done CAS in!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: australia
Age: 51
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, thanks very much for the fast reply.
Yeah I guess I thought it sounded very 'British' and wasn't sure if it would really be used by A-10 pilots as mentioned in the book.
How does the 9-line factor in when in orbit over known friendly positions? It seems like in the book it's a more fluid rapid call.
Like the first RPG attack at the beginning he calls for A-10 guns runs fairly informally.
Would it literally be "I need you to strafe 200 metres south of our position in the tree-line.." type stuff?
Yeah I guess I thought it sounded very 'British' and wasn't sure if it would really be used by A-10 pilots as mentioned in the book.
How does the 9-line factor in when in orbit over known friendly positions? It seems like in the book it's a more fluid rapid call.
Like the first RPG attack at the beginning he calls for A-10 guns runs fairly informally.
Would it literally be "I need you to strafe 200 metres south of our position in the tree-line.." type stuff?
CAS 9 lines are becoming known as "CAS briefs" know because "9 liner" has entered wider parlance as a CASEVAC request. CAS briefs can be omitted if there is an immediate threat to life and no other action is possible; those circumstances usually invoke national rights of self-defence which can never be restricted by rules and regs (that's not to say that a brief wouldn't be given if circumstances allowed).
Outside of self defence, it could be the case that a CAS brief has been given some time previously and is simply being updated by the passing of a new target position. It's not necessary to give the whole brief again. Finally it should be noted that a CAS brief need consist only of the target and friendly positions, which can be done in exactly the kind of quick verbal exchange described without any need for coordinates.
Outside of self defence, it could be the case that a CAS brief has been given some time previously and is simply being updated by the passing of a new target position. It's not necessary to give the whole brief again. Finally it should be noted that a CAS brief need consist only of the target and friendly positions, which can be done in exactly the kind of quick verbal exchange described without any need for coordinates.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: England
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As part of the CAS brief, a mandatory attack heading would have been given. ie MAH 270 - 300 degrees true for ....... reason. When the FAC is about to give the final clearance, we'd say "call tipping in heading 270 - 300 deg true, call for clearance" (or words to that effect).
People. I know the terms and conditions of this site don't prohibit this sort of thing, but we do have certain traditions around here. It's simply NOT DONE. Let me state it clearly for you so that we don't have a repeat of this awful breach of etiquette.
PPRuNers here NEVER give a sensible answer to a question on the first page of a thread. There must ALWAYS be at least 20 rude, insulting or ridiculous posts before getting anywhere near the point. This is an extreme case - the answer in the second post!
I'm going to have to lie down.
PPRuNers here NEVER give a sensible answer to a question on the first page of a thread. There must ALWAYS be at least 20 rude, insulting or ridiculous posts before getting anywhere near the point. This is an extreme case - the answer in the second post!
I'm going to have to lie down.
It also refers to some unmentionably obscene mud-moving behaviour, rather than to the purity of air-to-air combat, against a fellow knight of the sky....
I vaguely remember from Brawdy days that one would draw an attack route on a 50thou map showing an 'IP-to-target' track of about 60-90s, drawn with opposite sides of a nav rule to a Pull-Up Point....
Come the day...find the IP, re-start the watch, look for PuP and remember the sight piccy. Then pitch up, pause, roll and tip, acquire, track, film, recover, break, watch for the wingman, reform battle formation and rush off on escape heading to the next turning point....
In reality, it was an obsolete and probably suicidal tactic, but acceptable for initial tactical training and rather good fun - until some misery-guts realised that our off-range strafe profiles bottomed at about 100 ft agl. But over Viet-Taff territory, who cared?
I vaguely remember from Brawdy days that one would draw an attack route on a 50thou map showing an 'IP-to-target' track of about 60-90s, drawn with opposite sides of a nav rule to a Pull-Up Point....
Come the day...find the IP, re-start the watch, look for PuP and remember the sight piccy. Then pitch up, pause, roll and tip, acquire, track, film, recover, break, watch for the wingman, reform battle formation and rush off on escape heading to the next turning point....
In reality, it was an obsolete and probably suicidal tactic, but acceptable for initial tactical training and rather good fun - until some misery-guts realised that our off-range strafe profiles bottomed at about 100 ft agl. But over Viet-Taff territory, who cared?
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the clear weather scenario a JTAC will visually acquire the attacking aircraft in order to give you final clearance to employ weaponry. A call such as 'tipping in' will be his cue to look up and cease the million and four other tasks he's performing at the time. He's looking in the right bit of sky for your nose to be in the right place etc etc.
Some operators - the USMC especially, used to ask for a 'wings level' call which would obviously come a few seconds after one had 'tipped in'.
I quite enjoyed the Firestrike book other than it seemed to marry up aircraft capabilities with those of the aircrew themselves. I was also not convinced that a JTAC could claim 'kills'. A little peculiar for someone not employing weaponry. Just my opinion.
Some operators - the USMC especially, used to ask for a 'wings level' call which would obviously come a few seconds after one had 'tipped in'.
I quite enjoyed the Firestrike book other than it seemed to marry up aircraft capabilities with those of the aircrew themselves. I was also not convinced that a JTAC could claim 'kills'. A little peculiar for someone not employing weaponry. Just my opinion.
Last edited by orca; 27th Jan 2013 at 16:30.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: BFG
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The book itself is riddled with error. You only have to ask JFACTSU what they did with a copy of it on an OP at Spadeadam. Tipping in is an acceptable (if none standard) term. USAF/USMC/US NAVY dont use that term. A-10s will call ''up and in'' with the direction he has come from if at LL. FAC brevity is a bit of a minefield as I am sure it is with the pilots. As for claiming kills, I'm all for it, the FAC is on the ground he is talking on the A/C, he is buying the risk in cahoots with his ground commander. Maybe a share of the effect would be fair. One thing I can confirm is, when its gone well its'' well done the FST commander'' when it goes wrong its ''that bloody JTAC'' .
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: australia
Age: 51
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great info, really appreciate you guys taking the time to reply.
This book has created a large interest in CAS for me so I am stoked to be able to ask people questions about it.
This book has created a large interest in CAS for me so I am stoked to be able to ask people questions about it.
