Canadian Troops killed by US bomb.
Canadian Troops killed by US bomb.
How come every time we go to war lately with the Americans they bomb or fire Mavericks at our side?
How come the Canadians, Brits, French etc don't? (or at least don't make the news)
Not Yank bashing just curious.
Is there something in the respective training regimes? Is it skewed news reporting? If we get into a REALLY big punch up will we lose more of our side to our "friends" than our enemies? What can be done to prevent so called "friendly fire" casualties.
Doc C.
How come the Canadians, Brits, French etc don't? (or at least don't make the news)
Not Yank bashing just curious.
Is there something in the respective training regimes? Is it skewed news reporting? If we get into a REALLY big punch up will we lose more of our side to our "friends" than our enemies? What can be done to prevent so called "friendly fire" casualties.
Doc C.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wor...00/1936589.stm
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A US fighter plane in Afghanistan has accidentally bombed a group of Canadian troops, killing four soldiers and injuring eight others.
The incident, which occurred during a routine training exercise, happened near the southern city of Kandahar, 14 kilometres (eight miles) from the airport.
Clearly there are many questions that the families, and all Canadians, expect to have answered
The soldiers are the first Canadians to be killed in the US-led campaign against Taleban and al-Qaeda fighters in Afghanistan.
Two of those injured have life-threatening wounds and correspondents say it is the worst accidental bombing of the six-month Afghan campaign.
Canadian officials said their troops were engaged in what they described as live-fire training exercise, when an American F-16 plane dropped one or two 500-pound (225 kg) bombs on them.
Canada's defence chief Lieutenant General Ray Henault said the area was recognised as a training area and the aircraft were using strictly controlled routes.
"How this can happen is a mystery to us. Without a doubt there was a misidentification," he told reporters
The Canadian Prime Minister, Jean Chretien, said US President George Bush had called to offer condolences and pledged to co-operate with the Canadian investigation into the incident.
"As to the circumstances of what appears to have been a terrible accident, clearly there are many questions that the families, and all Canadians, expect to have answered," he said in a statement.
Reporting from the British Royal Marine's base in Bagram, the BBC's Jonathan Charles says one question which will be asked is whether the American Air National Guard should be operating in Afghanistan.
He says the pilots are reservists who generally fly civilian planes and are called up for service when required.
British marines are conducting operations in the mountains of the south-east of the country and are being given US air support for their missions - the latest "friendly fire" incident is likely to raise new safety concerns among them.
These are the first Canadian deaths in a military campaign since the Korean War in the early 1950s.
More than 700 Canadian soldiers are deployed in Afghanistan and are operating out of Kandahar.
On Monday, four American soldiers were killed while blowing up unexploded rockets, also near Kandahar.
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A US fighter plane in Afghanistan has accidentally bombed a group of Canadian troops, killing four soldiers and injuring eight others.
The incident, which occurred during a routine training exercise, happened near the southern city of Kandahar, 14 kilometres (eight miles) from the airport.
Clearly there are many questions that the families, and all Canadians, expect to have answered
The soldiers are the first Canadians to be killed in the US-led campaign against Taleban and al-Qaeda fighters in Afghanistan.
Two of those injured have life-threatening wounds and correspondents say it is the worst accidental bombing of the six-month Afghan campaign.
Canadian officials said their troops were engaged in what they described as live-fire training exercise, when an American F-16 plane dropped one or two 500-pound (225 kg) bombs on them.
Canada's defence chief Lieutenant General Ray Henault said the area was recognised as a training area and the aircraft were using strictly controlled routes.
"How this can happen is a mystery to us. Without a doubt there was a misidentification," he told reporters
The Canadian Prime Minister, Jean Chretien, said US President George Bush had called to offer condolences and pledged to co-operate with the Canadian investigation into the incident.
"As to the circumstances of what appears to have been a terrible accident, clearly there are many questions that the families, and all Canadians, expect to have answered," he said in a statement.
Reporting from the British Royal Marine's base in Bagram, the BBC's Jonathan Charles says one question which will be asked is whether the American Air National Guard should be operating in Afghanistan.
He says the pilots are reservists who generally fly civilian planes and are called up for service when required.
British marines are conducting operations in the mountains of the south-east of the country and are being given US air support for their missions - the latest "friendly fire" incident is likely to raise new safety concerns among them.
These are the first Canadian deaths in a military campaign since the Korean War in the early 1950s.
More than 700 Canadian soldiers are deployed in Afghanistan and are operating out of Kandahar.
On Monday, four American soldiers were killed while blowing up unexploded rockets, also near Kandahar.
Bringer of Wx
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The U.S. and 'Friendly Fire'
It does seem to happen a lot doesn't it? However, it would be good to have a sensible debate about this phenomenon, without, as the good Doctor Cruces put it, unnecessary 'Yank Bashing'. My heartfelt sympathy to the Canadian personnel and their families.
WxJx
PS wouldn't it be nice if someone could think of a more precise term than 'Friendly Fire', which reeks of insincere PR cynicism? I think the Americans do themselves little credit by inventing and using weasel words such as these.
WxJx
PS wouldn't it be nice if someone could think of a more precise term than 'Friendly Fire', which reeks of insincere PR cynicism? I think the Americans do themselves little credit by inventing and using weasel words such as these.
Last edited by WeatherJinx; 18th Apr 2002 at 09:29.
Having worked with the USAF on many occasions over the years I am sadly not surprised when incidents like this happen. Part of the reason may be that American forces just have too much live ordnance in their training. As a result I think that they lose a little of the respect that is essential in handling live, extremely destructive weaponry. I certainly know that UK forces have such limited access to live weapons that when you get one, all contingencies are briefed to death and before you press that button you make damned sure you know that the site is on the target. In my experience in working with the US military it is often the case that it's "just another standard mission, only 4X Mk82, good job, outstanding".
My Dad told a story that goes back to the Italian Campaign WW2:
When the Brits bombed- Jerry took cover
When Jerry bombed- the allies took cover
When the yanks bombed- Everyone took cover!
And he wasn't joking!!
When the Brits bombed- Jerry took cover
When Jerry bombed- the allies took cover
When the yanks bombed- Everyone took cover!
And he wasn't joking!!
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In their defence, the US has in recent times contributed the overwelming majority of airpower to allied campaigns, and therefore, when accidents happen (as they always do) it is statistically always more likely to be from one of their pylons.
I'm sure, as stated, there are other reasons why people claim the USAF stands for Usually Shoots At Friendlies.
I'm sure, as stated, there are other reasons why people claim the USAF stands for Usually Shoots At Friendlies.
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This particular sad event has not made a big splash so far in media here, so far as I know. Condolences to the families and mates of all concerned.
As has been stated in a previous post "Friendly Fire" isn't and there should be a better name for it.
In past unfortunate experience the USAF has had a number of, for no better term, Friendly Fire incidents ... several US special operations people and locals were killed earlier in this little "police action". Since they drop the bulk of the tonnage maybe they have more opportunity to mess up. I do know that when U.S. ground pounders call in air they love to have Marines, they like having Navy. They take USAF if that is what is available. If the PPRUNE report is correct in it's particulars and F-16s were involved in fairness to the aircrew involved , who probably feel terrible about it, the F-16 has been modded and ECP'd to get to a half decent air/ground capability that wasn't designed in from the start.
As has been stated in a previous post "Friendly Fire" isn't and there should be a better name for it.
In past unfortunate experience the USAF has had a number of, for no better term, Friendly Fire incidents ... several US special operations people and locals were killed earlier in this little "police action". Since they drop the bulk of the tonnage maybe they have more opportunity to mess up. I do know that when U.S. ground pounders call in air they love to have Marines, they like having Navy. They take USAF if that is what is available. If the PPRUNE report is correct in it's particulars and F-16s were involved in fairness to the aircrew involved , who probably feel terrible about it, the F-16 has been modded and ECP'd to get to a half decent air/ground capability that wasn't designed in from the start.
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There is no such thing as "friendly fire", cos it is all very unfriendly!
According to CNN, the Air National Guard F16 had requested permission to drop bombs on ground targets, but was refused, he then acted in "self defence" when he dropped two 500lb bombs.
I feel for the crew of the F16, who no doubt will be overcome with sorrow (one would hope so anyway), however the next of kin of the soldiers involved will feature in alot of prayers for a while and deserve an answer to establish why this un-necessary accident happened.
The USAF does have a poor record when it comes to fratricide, (my rough calculations), I believe the USAF killed more British troops in the 91 gulf war than any other single act!
I find it hard to believe that the number of live munitions that they use plays any part in these accidents, simply to train for war using weapons of war is good training and should prevent nerves creeping onto the master arm switch!
One thing is for sure, the "Sky gods" who so often help ground troops should sample life in the trenches or on the battle field and maybe then, they will exercise caution when dropping bombs in questionable circumstances.
The Amercans do drop more bombs than anyone else, but can anybody recall another nation having any such accidents? Did the RAF in the 82 Falklands war?
A sad day for all involved!
According to CNN, the Air National Guard F16 had requested permission to drop bombs on ground targets, but was refused, he then acted in "self defence" when he dropped two 500lb bombs.
I feel for the crew of the F16, who no doubt will be overcome with sorrow (one would hope so anyway), however the next of kin of the soldiers involved will feature in alot of prayers for a while and deserve an answer to establish why this un-necessary accident happened.
The USAF does have a poor record when it comes to fratricide, (my rough calculations), I believe the USAF killed more British troops in the 91 gulf war than any other single act!
I find it hard to believe that the number of live munitions that they use plays any part in these accidents, simply to train for war using weapons of war is good training and should prevent nerves creeping onto the master arm switch!
One thing is for sure, the "Sky gods" who so often help ground troops should sample life in the trenches or on the battle field and maybe then, they will exercise caution when dropping bombs in questionable circumstances.
The Amercans do drop more bombs than anyone else, but can anybody recall another nation having any such accidents? Did the RAF in the 82 Falklands war?
A sad day for all involved!
Grandpa Aerotart
I just finished reading a very good book on the D-Day landings in 1944. 100s of Allied troops died that day from 'friendly fire', many from short rounds from ships off shore.
In every war there are casualties from FF, perhaps the US kill more because they are always in a position of delivering the majority of the ordinance.
The only thing new about these sorts of mistakes is the advent of CNN......and therefor public awareness.
It's sad but I would suggest it is just one more aspect of warfare that, pre Vietnam War, the public never knew about.
All the platitudes from the generals and pollies, the 'investigations' etc are, imho, just window dressing on a problem that will never go away while ever wars exist.
Chuck
In every war there are casualties from FF, perhaps the US kill more because they are always in a position of delivering the majority of the ordinance.
The only thing new about these sorts of mistakes is the advent of CNN......and therefor public awareness.
It's sad but I would suggest it is just one more aspect of warfare that, pre Vietnam War, the public never knew about.
All the platitudes from the generals and pollies, the 'investigations' etc are, imho, just window dressing on a problem that will never go away while ever wars exist.
Chuck
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There are several news references to the pilot believing that he was under fire from the ground. How exactly would he know this? With modern technology, is it not possible to "know" rather than "believe"? There are also suggestions that they may not have been aware of the live firing exercise in which the Canadian forces were involved!
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owe ver chute,
during the Falklands War there were at least two instances of "friendly fire". One was between the SAS and SBS - one SBS killed, and the other when a Gazelle was shot down by Navy missile - 4 killed. Given none involved RAF.
during the Falklands War there were at least two instances of "friendly fire". One was between the SAS and SBS - one SBS killed, and the other when a Gazelle was shot down by Navy missile - 4 killed. Given none involved RAF.
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Having worked with the USAF on many occasions over the years I am sadly not surprised when incidents like this happen
There was a incident when AH-64's engaged other SFOR troops (fench i think) during a live fire ex. on a "bush" range, none was injured, thanx to poor targeting by the US pilots. (The AH-64's was not in the exercise, they just overflew the range)
"Oh- a man with a gun, bullets flying, not in US uniform, lets fire on him"
They know where their own are, but not anyone else
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Gentlemen,
My condolences to the families of the victims. Why is it that when something like this happens, everyone jumps on the 'Yank-bashing-they-are-so-gash' wagon. It's pathetic! Never forget, that we all rely on the US to take the initiative on any campaign, after which we merrily lot-in to look good for the press. As for their standard of training.....I defy any other nation to suggest that they have their proverbial Sh*t sorted more than the Yanks. Accidents happen. Who knows what the thought process that led to this tragic incident was? Was it a case of 'different-nations-different NOTAM-system? What exactly was said on the radios? The simple answer is WE DON'T KNOW YET! Stop jumping on the band wagon. Flaps, i'm ashamed of you. You obviously haven't trained with the Yanks much. Once again, regrets to the families.
My condolences to the families of the victims. Why is it that when something like this happens, everyone jumps on the 'Yank-bashing-they-are-so-gash' wagon. It's pathetic! Never forget, that we all rely on the US to take the initiative on any campaign, after which we merrily lot-in to look good for the press. As for their standard of training.....I defy any other nation to suggest that they have their proverbial Sh*t sorted more than the Yanks. Accidents happen. Who knows what the thought process that led to this tragic incident was? Was it a case of 'different-nations-different NOTAM-system? What exactly was said on the radios? The simple answer is WE DON'T KNOW YET! Stop jumping on the band wagon. Flaps, i'm ashamed of you. You obviously haven't trained with the Yanks much. Once again, regrets to the families.
Not Yank bashing - more like fact. Seems that they provide 90% of air-power and 100% of blue on blue. Without giving it too much thought I can think of N. Iraq Blackhawk shoot-down,gulf Aegis on Iranian airbus, Kosovo F16 LGB attack on civvie convoy, Kuwai F18 on ground FAC, gulf war A10 on Warror and now this. Can't remember too many other nations having such a track record (not to say there haven't been the occasional 1 or 2 though).
Quite often their attitude can be summed up by the following tale:
Situation: Inbrief to new crews at Op Provide Comfort (Incirlic to Iraq). Welcomes from commanding US general and Brit Detco followed by lengthy capabilities, ROE and tactics briefs by the various AD assets, muds, jammers, AWACS et al. Final player to brief is the US National Guard Wild Weasel Detco who stood up, said:
"You guys go in there and if they light up we're gonna kill them b***ards"
and sat back down again. 10 out of 10 for the John Wayne impression but 0 out of 10 for professionalism. The attitude of most of the US forces (and even though they were great guys, the guard were the worst) was that they were desperate to drop something before they went home. Most of the Brits and French wanted to go home with no dramas thank you very much.
Quite often their attitude can be summed up by the following tale:
Situation: Inbrief to new crews at Op Provide Comfort (Incirlic to Iraq). Welcomes from commanding US general and Brit Detco followed by lengthy capabilities, ROE and tactics briefs by the various AD assets, muds, jammers, AWACS et al. Final player to brief is the US National Guard Wild Weasel Detco who stood up, said:
"You guys go in there and if they light up we're gonna kill them b***ards"
and sat back down again. 10 out of 10 for the John Wayne impression but 0 out of 10 for professionalism. The attitude of most of the US forces (and even though they were great guys, the guard were the worst) was that they were desperate to drop something before they went home. Most of the Brits and French wanted to go home with no dramas thank you very much.
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I can't see how any of the reply's on this thread can be mis-construed as "yank bashing"!
Most people who come into contact with other nationals, will form an opinion of that persons nation. Rightly or wrongly, its human nature I'm affraid.
While it is fair to say that none of the in-depth facts about this tragic accident have been released, only one person was sat in the cockpit of the F16 and he alone truly knows what his thought process was at the crucial moment, that person was from the USAF, albeit Nationa Guard.
Maybe a common link between the aircraft types involved in these "blue on blue" incidents, they are mostly single seat! Personality types who typically get streamed into these types are less likely to ask "what if", more like "so what", add to this the lack of a weapons officer and its no wonder that these incidents happen from time to time.
This is not yank bashin, it's "jet jocky bashin" in broad terms!
Most people who come into contact with other nationals, will form an opinion of that persons nation. Rightly or wrongly, its human nature I'm affraid.
While it is fair to say that none of the in-depth facts about this tragic accident have been released, only one person was sat in the cockpit of the F16 and he alone truly knows what his thought process was at the crucial moment, that person was from the USAF, albeit Nationa Guard.
Maybe a common link between the aircraft types involved in these "blue on blue" incidents, they are mostly single seat! Personality types who typically get streamed into these types are less likely to ask "what if", more like "so what", add to this the lack of a weapons officer and its no wonder that these incidents happen from time to time.
This is not yank bashin, it's "jet jocky bashin" in broad terms!
Last edited by owe ver chute; 19th Apr 2002 at 20:02.
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The worst blue-on-blue I ever heard about, and it was well hushed-up at the time, was the FAA Wyvern strike on a mosque during the Suez affair. The mosque was well the wrong side of the bomb-line, but the HQ insisted and the Wyverns eventually yielded to its blandishments. Unfortunately the mosque was occupied by the RM.
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This whole thing is turning out like the sequal to Catch 22.
My thoughts go out to the families at this time.
I think the Canadian reply was more than adequate and very dignified in getting the message across.
There will never be an end to Blue on Blue, however the pointers are all there, if the cap fits wear it.
My thoughts go out to the families at this time.
I think the Canadian reply was more than adequate and very dignified in getting the message across.
There will never be an end to Blue on Blue, however the pointers are all there, if the cap fits wear it.