Canadian Troops killed by US bomb.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Canada
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Yes, we lost four, and how many has America lost to friendly fire? Sh$# happens, mistakes are made. Similar to aircraft accidents, I hope that both governments pick apart what when wrong, and fix it. Communication between all levels of forces seems to be a problem, heck I can log onto pprune, tell someone off, and get a reply faster than the speed of light (not that I've ever tried that myself,) but I've seen it! Communication is so simple in this new age. Why is it lacking in our military?
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Does anyone know the detail of the Kosovo attack on the refugee convoy. I recall some bar room chat by those close to the action but can't recall the detail. I think RAF were on the scene but backed off. It would be interesting to hear some info as this incident seems to have some parallels to the subject. Were the lessons learned and acted on?
Won't go into too much detail but you're broadly correct. Brit Harriers were called onto a target but wern't happy that they could identify the target as hostile and so decline to drop. Cue USAF F16's, death reigns from the sky for those dastardly peasants and their awesomely capable donkey carts.
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There's no doubt that accidents like this will always happen, the only way to reduce them and that is with prior planning and awareness of where the problems arise. Let me tell you a story, pull up a sandbag and make yourself comfortable!!
Whilst flying in the Arabian Sea, before the Gulf war so it was a while ago! We heard on Guard the Omani AD guy call up an unidentified aircraft that was approaching Omani airspace. No answer, so he called again! Still no answer, eventually giving the unidentified aircraft's height, heading, and position. The aircraft responded, it was an American C-141. The controller asked why they didn't identify themselves the correct distance from the ADIZ, they replied that they didn't know! The controller pointed out it was in the ERS, and the aircraft replied, asking how long that rule had been in place. The controller said since the foundation of the Sultanate of Oman!!!
Oh! He also told the aircraft to follow the Jag that had been sitting on his wingtip for 20 mins to the nearest airfield!!
Whilst flying in the Arabian Sea, before the Gulf war so it was a while ago! We heard on Guard the Omani AD guy call up an unidentified aircraft that was approaching Omani airspace. No answer, so he called again! Still no answer, eventually giving the unidentified aircraft's height, heading, and position. The aircraft responded, it was an American C-141. The controller asked why they didn't identify themselves the correct distance from the ADIZ, they replied that they didn't know! The controller pointed out it was in the ERS, and the aircraft replied, asking how long that rule had been in place. The controller said since the foundation of the Sultanate of Oman!!!
Oh! He also told the aircraft to follow the Jag that had been sitting on his wingtip for 20 mins to the nearest airfield!!
Join Date: Apr 2002
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I heard some more on this subject this morning, can "this is rumour only" any one confirm? A Awacs plane was in the area at the time and the pilot of the said aircraft was told 3 times that he was not to engage!!
Trailing some Tornadoes back from Saudi some years after the First Gulf War had finished, we heard Uncle Spam on Guard calling 'unidentified ac at position blah, identify yourselves'. We did so and were told 'This is R** C****, you are clear to proceed'. Well - pardon us for flying in international airspace with a properly filed flight plan, but what the hell has it got to do with you, Yank? You might be bobbing up and down on the briney in your big grey boat, but it's NOT your country! Anyway - just replied "You are absolutely right, we are indeed going to proceed on our flight plan and thank you for your interest. Good bye"
I am getting increasingly concerned at the risks everyone's going to be facing if George Dubya continues to blunder about the World using any possible excuse to bully people he doesn't like on the grounds of **** and at the way our New Labour poodle is behaving........
I am getting increasingly concerned at the risks everyone's going to be facing if George Dubya continues to blunder about the World using any possible excuse to bully people he doesn't like on the grounds of **** and at the way our New Labour poodle is behaving........
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Probably a tad off the main topic, but definately in keeping with the current theme, a gem to share with you all. The resident USAF Wg Hq where I am presently lurking regularly pushes out ammendments to its FCIFs, and proudly emblazoned at the foot of the page is the following:
"Global Power For America".....................hmmmmmmmmmmm.
"Global Power For America".....................hmmmmmmmmmmm.
In the Telegraph.....
Pilot 'broke rules' in bomb blunder
By David Rennie
(Filed: 20/06/2002)
An American pilot with the call sign "Psycho", who killed four Canadian soldiers when he dropped a 500-lb bomb on them on a training exercise in Afghanistan, ignored proper procedures, investigators have found.
The pilot, identified as Major Harry Schmidt of the Illinois Air National Guard, is likely to face criminal charges, a senior defence official told the Washington Post.
An eight-week preliminary investigation has found that Maj Schmidt, a former naval air ace, rushed into an attack after seeing flashes of small arms fire, instead of leaving the scene to assess the threat and before a radar aircraft could identify the forces as Canadian.
Canadian commanders had notified US forces of the exercise, which was taking place at night in a designated training area.
The incident, the first in which Canadian soldiers have been killed in a combat zone since the Korean War, caused deep anger in Canada after President George W Bush took a day to apologise for it.
Further anger was stoked by the striking disinterest displayed by American media after the incident.
By David Rennie
(Filed: 20/06/2002)
An American pilot with the call sign "Psycho", who killed four Canadian soldiers when he dropped a 500-lb bomb on them on a training exercise in Afghanistan, ignored proper procedures, investigators have found.
The pilot, identified as Major Harry Schmidt of the Illinois Air National Guard, is likely to face criminal charges, a senior defence official told the Washington Post.
An eight-week preliminary investigation has found that Maj Schmidt, a former naval air ace, rushed into an attack after seeing flashes of small arms fire, instead of leaving the scene to assess the threat and before a radar aircraft could identify the forces as Canadian.
Canadian commanders had notified US forces of the exercise, which was taking place at night in a designated training area.
The incident, the first in which Canadian soldiers have been killed in a combat zone since the Korean War, caused deep anger in Canada after President George W Bush took a day to apologise for it.
Further anger was stoked by the striking disinterest displayed by American media after the incident.
Join Date: May 2002
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friendly fire
did anyone see the documentary on bbc2 on the battle of monte cassino? basically the usaaf as it then was decide to mount a bombing raid a day early, only problem was they neglected to tell troops on ground. i also read a small article on this in todays telegraph, pilot was illlinois ang ex usn callsign psycho(and i thought the spams didnt understand irony) and it also said he may face criminal charges, i think they mean courts martial. the canadians killed were the canadians first combat deaths since korea.
Join Date: Jun 2002
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I can asure you all, the Royal Marines deployed in Afghanistan at the moment are far happier having US air on call than than the alternative supplied by UK PLC - nothing, as usual.
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Flap 62..you are a legend
I have bitten my tongue through this thread but now that I have lost four pints of blood I think its worth saying something.
I am Ex Somalia...yes "Blackhawk Down" vintage, ex military (obviously) and now working the Afghan operation from an "Arabian" location, but not American.
I will not go too far with this just yet, but having witnessed, logged and officially monitered reports of an average of 2 incidents a week involving US forces (typically USN/USAF, US National Guard and reserve elements) in the Afghan operation and I have to say that its a nice theory "we are supplying 90% of the assets therefore statistically it is inevitable that the US assets will be involved in more incidents" .....this logic is absolute tripe.
The incidents we have almost on a daily basis with the US assets are serious (life threatening in a number of cases) and yet stem from the most basic and fundamental avaition errors that come about through pure arrogance and naivity to international conventions and operations.
When you are ready to take me to task on this issue have your facts ready, as only last night a US KC135 under civil radar control returning from the tactical area missed a USN Hawkey (ironically the eyes of the fleet, and not in contact with the US operational controllers of the adjacent tactical entry point for the Afghan operation) by less than seeing eye distance. This is military on miltary and who cares you might say, more concerning is the Diego Garcia (Bomber and Refueller) recoveries who cross all civil airways at 90 degrees out, non- standard levels and not talking to any civil or respectable military agencies and who have averaged an air miss with civil traffic every 2 and a half days or so. Any regular operator through the busy middle eastern air space will be familiar with this situation.....
Looking forward to taking people to who want to take me to task on this issue and if the responses are only concerned with my spelling errors forget it I know I am bad at engrish.
"Traffic...1 O'clock, 3 miles, tracking left to right, same level.....no threat."
I have bitten my tongue through this thread but now that I have lost four pints of blood I think its worth saying something.
I am Ex Somalia...yes "Blackhawk Down" vintage, ex military (obviously) and now working the Afghan operation from an "Arabian" location, but not American.
I will not go too far with this just yet, but having witnessed, logged and officially monitered reports of an average of 2 incidents a week involving US forces (typically USN/USAF, US National Guard and reserve elements) in the Afghan operation and I have to say that its a nice theory "we are supplying 90% of the assets therefore statistically it is inevitable that the US assets will be involved in more incidents" .....this logic is absolute tripe.
The incidents we have almost on a daily basis with the US assets are serious (life threatening in a number of cases) and yet stem from the most basic and fundamental avaition errors that come about through pure arrogance and naivity to international conventions and operations.
When you are ready to take me to task on this issue have your facts ready, as only last night a US KC135 under civil radar control returning from the tactical area missed a USN Hawkey (ironically the eyes of the fleet, and not in contact with the US operational controllers of the adjacent tactical entry point for the Afghan operation) by less than seeing eye distance. This is military on miltary and who cares you might say, more concerning is the Diego Garcia (Bomber and Refueller) recoveries who cross all civil airways at 90 degrees out, non- standard levels and not talking to any civil or respectable military agencies and who have averaged an air miss with civil traffic every 2 and a half days or so. Any regular operator through the busy middle eastern air space will be familiar with this situation.....
Looking forward to taking people to who want to take me to task on this issue and if the responses are only concerned with my spelling errors forget it I know I am bad at engrish.
"Traffic...1 O'clock, 3 miles, tracking left to right, same level.....no threat."
I think some of you are getting carried away with yourselves out there. I have recently spent some time in the company of certain US Air Recce people, who showed me an internal report on one of the first incidents of this campaign. I showed that the FAC who called for the 'Strike' had a battery failure on his GPS just as he was calling for the strike. Once he had changed batteries he did not realise that the GPS reset to his position rather than the last one in the memory, and called the strike down on himself. The points thast were raise were that there are several levels of experience with these guys, the best being the equivelant of our best, but the further down the chain you go the less impressive the people are. Secodly there are a lot of 'Agencies' operating out here with people that very few people know about. The report stated that 'accidents' will happen in this kind of scenario. Perhaps people should think of the operating conditions of these people and ask themselves could they do the job. I for one am glad of Uncle Sam's forces helping us out.
