Handing back of medals
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@CM
I won't say what I felt about the UKBF public servant who manned one of the desks at Gatwick immigration on my return from one of my conny jaunts...for the particular sin of not having read "the sign" about removing passports from their covers I was harangued and threatened with "being put to the back of the [long] queue no less....
...well I think it was the Queens English it spoke......funny how these little things stick in your mind and colour your opinions so disproportionally...
@500N
Expell some of the UKBF employees
...well I think it was the Queens English it spoke......funny how these little things stick in your mind and colour your opinions so disproportionally...
@500N
Why hasn't someone brought in a law that says if you serve in the UK
forces for XX years you can get citizenship and residency, plus, if you are wounded or earn any gallantry medal from MID upwards, this allows automatic citizenship and residency
forces for XX years you can get citizenship and residency, plus, if you are wounded or earn any gallantry medal from MID upwards, this allows automatic citizenship and residency
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glad rag
When i joined the Aussie Reserves while I worked out what I wanted to do
- I was staying in Aus regardless of what my parents did (ie go back to the UK), you had to be an Aussie citizen within a certain period so I got Naturalised straight away - and in Uniform which was a bonus !!!
I think they now have a certain period to stop people joining up
which allowed people to jump the queue, although now with the
way the military is run it's not as easy.
But in any case, I reckon whichever country you serve you should
be allowed to become a citizen after a set period or as I stated above.
When i joined the Aussie Reserves while I worked out what I wanted to do
- I was staying in Aus regardless of what my parents did (ie go back to the UK), you had to be an Aussie citizen within a certain period so I got Naturalised straight away - and in Uniform which was a bonus !!!
I think they now have a certain period to stop people joining up
which allowed people to jump the queue, although now with the
way the military is run it's not as easy.
But in any case, I reckon whichever country you serve you should
be allowed to become a citizen after a set period or as I stated above.
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Nothing the crack 7.62 over their heads won't fix 
Already a separate thread on the forum re the Muslim gangs.
Already a separate thread on the forum re the Muslim gangs.
Last edited by 500N; 23rd Jan 2013 at 05:35.
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SHAME
Shame on the British Govt for this debacle. Here is a soldier giving his life for the country receiving 5 medals for gallantry in 13 years and this is the way he is treated. Besides he acted in self-defence in the altercation and was deemed a dishonourable soldier by his CO. He did win his appeal in the end but at what cost?.....
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Glad Rag.....and anyone else in a similar situation.
I noticed towards the end of my time with the Immigration Service that some of my colleagues had developed a tendency to act in this manner. They have no right whatsoever to do so. If you encounter such unwarrantable rudeness, stand your ground and insist on seeing a Chief Immigration Officer (or whatever the Border Control equivalent is.) Explain calmly what has happened, remain even tempered and the situation will resolve itself. I have seen Immigration Officers harangue perfectly innocent business travellers, who shuttle back and forth between the USA and UK, because they haven't put the address of their hotel on their landing card. These cards, for bona fide travellers, were only counted for statistical purposes and then pulped. This particular traveller was told that he could be refused and sent back for his "offence"! Total nonsense, and indicative of the "bully boy" mentality referred to by glad rag.
Anyone who has served in UK armed forces should be entitled to citizenship, to my mind....in the same way that service in the French Foreign Legion gives French citizenship.
I noticed towards the end of my time with the Immigration Service that some of my colleagues had developed a tendency to act in this manner. They have no right whatsoever to do so. If you encounter such unwarrantable rudeness, stand your ground and insist on seeing a Chief Immigration Officer (or whatever the Border Control equivalent is.) Explain calmly what has happened, remain even tempered and the situation will resolve itself. I have seen Immigration Officers harangue perfectly innocent business travellers, who shuttle back and forth between the USA and UK, because they haven't put the address of their hotel on their landing card. These cards, for bona fide travellers, were only counted for statistical purposes and then pulped. This particular traveller was told that he could be refused and sent back for his "offence"! Total nonsense, and indicative of the "bully boy" mentality referred to by glad rag.
Anyone who has served in UK armed forces should be entitled to citizenship, to my mind....in the same way that service in the French Foreign Legion gives French citizenship.
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Summary Hearings
Shame on the British Govt for this debacle. Here is a soldier giving his life for the country receiving 5 medals for gallantry in 13 years and this is the way he is treated. Besides he acted in self-defence in the altercation and was deemed a dishonourable soldier by his CO. He did win his appeal in the end but at what cost?.....
I think you've hit the nail on the head. UKBA have rules to follow and it was his CO who deemed he was a criminal of bad character. This is not the case at all, when faced with a judge and having access to legal advice at a de novo appeal he was found not guilty.
I have it on good authority that his Commanding Officer was quoted in saying that he was glad he would not be deported, however he believed that the judgement was incorrect. WTF?!? An experienced judge residing over criminal proceedings where the defendant had access to legal advice that could call witnesses was believed to be incorrect.
This is in contrast to a hearing in front of a non legally trained Commanding Officer, where he was marched in, pled guilty because he was unaware of the consequences and his Commanding Officer believes this is the correct way to administer justice.
Featured again in the times:-
Fijian soldier sends medals to Prince Charles over citizenship fight | The Times
Lord Dannatt, stated ‘The military must have its own criminal justice’ | The Times that the military must have its own criminal justice system. Military commanders are qualified to dish out punishment, he said. “A commanding officer is a relatively experienced person who understands the importance of the maintenance of good order and military discipline within his unit and will be rigorously fair.”
Was Bale's treatment rigorously fair?
I would be interested in any arguments that can be put forward as to why a Commanding Officer requires powers to reside over criminal proceedings rather than exclusively non criminal service discipline offences, and leaving criminal matters to Court Martial?
I think you've hit the nail on the head. UKBA have rules to follow and it was his CO who deemed he was a criminal of bad character. This is not the case at all, when faced with a judge and having access to legal advice at a de novo appeal he was found not guilty.
I have it on good authority that his Commanding Officer was quoted in saying that he was glad he would not be deported, however he believed that the judgement was incorrect. WTF?!? An experienced judge residing over criminal proceedings where the defendant had access to legal advice that could call witnesses was believed to be incorrect.
This is in contrast to a hearing in front of a non legally trained Commanding Officer, where he was marched in, pled guilty because he was unaware of the consequences and his Commanding Officer believes this is the correct way to administer justice.
Featured again in the times:-
Fijian soldier sends medals to Prince Charles over citizenship fight | The Times
Lord Dannatt, stated ‘The military must have its own criminal justice’ | The Times that the military must have its own criminal justice system. Military commanders are qualified to dish out punishment, he said. “A commanding officer is a relatively experienced person who understands the importance of the maintenance of good order and military discipline within his unit and will be rigorously fair.”
Was Bale's treatment rigorously fair?
I would be interested in any arguments that can be put forward as to why a Commanding Officer requires powers to reside over criminal proceedings rather than exclusively non criminal service discipline offences, and leaving criminal matters to Court Martial?
Last edited by AvionicToad; 24th Jan 2013 at 09:38.
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I have read a few articles on this guy but have never seen
what medals he won.
Can someone list them ?
Thanks
what medals he won.
Can someone list them ?
Thanks
- GSM 62 with NI Clasp
- NATO with FRY Claso
- OSM with Iraq Clasp.
- OSM with Afghanistan Clasp
- QGJM.
Confusingly though news reports vary with regards number (4 or 5) of medals handed back.
Can someone please answer my questions...
one of them was, how can a non citizen fight with HM forces...
one of them was, how can a non citizen fight with HM forces...
1. Nationals of other Commonwealth countries can enlist in HM UK armed forces and normally retain their original citizenship throughout their service. (Incidentally, Gurkha soldiers in the British Army are normally Nepali nationals and not Commonwealth citizens.)
2. As you rightly say, not being a UK citizen can limit the individual in terms of security clearances required by officers and specialists.
3. The crime of treason depends on "allegiance", not necessarily on passport held.
Last edited by baffman; 24th Jan 2013 at 12:00.
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UKBA backlogs: Inspectors find thousands of new cases...
...carrying on from earlier above..
UKBA backlogs: Inspectors find thousands of new cases
UKBA backlogs: Inspectors find thousands of new cases
At the time of the inspection last year, the marriage-related backlog was growing at a rate of 700 cases a month.
Lin Homer, who headed the Border and Immigration Agency and later the UK Border Agency, between 2005 and 2010, is currently chief executive of HM Revenue and Customs.
Lin Homer, who headed the Border and Immigration Agency and later the UK Border Agency, between 2005 and 2010, is currently chief executive of HM Revenue and Customs.
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Can someone please answer my questions...
one of them was, how can a non citizen fight with HM forces...
one of them was, how can a non citizen fight with HM forces...
R
Last edited by Riskman; 25th Jan 2013 at 19:07.
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Personally if you serve in the UK military for a minimum defined period, citizenship should be a right.
Avionic Toad:-
I'm sure that you have an informed (professional even?) take on this, but did the CO really deem that?
I'm not backing the CO, I don't know him and there are no doubt as many poor CO's as ever there were. The charge was for an offence against Military Law, but was it a criminal offence under military law?
If some administrative process has linked summary military offences with civilian criminal ones, is that not where the "deeming" has happened, and from where the unintended consequences originate?
I'm sure that there are many technical howlers in my proposition, but can you see where I'm coming from? It's one thing to link Court Martial convictions with Civilian ones, but quite another for Summary convictions, no matter the plea, with those of a Civilian Court.
I still maintain that this "harmonisation" of Military life with the Civilian one is a fundamental error and is slowly underminding Service discipline.
...it was his CO who deemed he was a criminal of bad character.
I'm not backing the CO, I don't know him and there are no doubt as many poor CO's as ever there were. The charge was for an offence against Military Law, but was it a criminal offence under military law?
If some administrative process has linked summary military offences with civilian criminal ones, is that not where the "deeming" has happened, and from where the unintended consequences originate?
I'm sure that there are many technical howlers in my proposition, but can you see where I'm coming from? It's one thing to link Court Martial convictions with Civilian ones, but quite another for Summary convictions, no matter the plea, with those of a Civilian Court.
I still maintain that this "harmonisation" of Military life with the Civilian one is a fundamental error and is slowly underminding Service discipline.
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A conviction for battery without knowledge of it?
Chugalyg - Bale had a conviction for battery an (offence under section 39 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (c. 33) (assault and battery). This is what the charge paperwork would have said, and the burden of proof and seriousness of that charge should be the same under military law and civil law. Bale could have been trailed for any number of alternative non recordable service offences, (indeed the army before his appeal de novo attempted to add a new charge).
He genuinely did not know that he had this conviction, or the implications of it. I speak from personal experience because the same thing happened to me.
'Military justice left me unaware I had criminal conviction' - Channel 4 News
The very fact that he was unaware of a criminal conviction that he did not contest at a summary hearing, and was later found not guilty is unbelievable.
Why does one person need all that power completely unchecked? Why not leave criminal matters to court martial and the CO can still punish etc without ruining people's lives long after they have left HM Forces?
He genuinely did not know that he had this conviction, or the implications of it. I speak from personal experience because the same thing happened to me.
'Military justice left me unaware I had criminal conviction' - Channel 4 News
The very fact that he was unaware of a criminal conviction that he did not contest at a summary hearing, and was later found not guilty is unbelievable.
Why does one person need all that power completely unchecked? Why not leave criminal matters to court martial and the CO can still punish etc without ruining people's lives long after they have left HM Forces?
Last edited by AvionicToad; 27th Jan 2013 at 20:29.
