Aircraft crashed at RAF Cranwell
Originally Posted by LJ
The messes are virtually empty at Cranwell and the airspace is pretty empty as well - no more Harriers at Wittering and Cottesmore, Barkston run back from norms, the Dominies gone at Cranwell and little going on at Wyton apart from EFT/UAS/AEF. The likes of Waddington and Coningsby are running at the traditional rates, but their working heights are higher and often North or East.
Take it from me, Cranwell has stacks of capacity to absorb 24IPS (and some), both for flying and domestic support, plus plenty of airspace. Either Cranwell needs to shut or Linton - guess which?
I agree about Valley, and that is another option. How difficult is it to clear an internal immersion suit for Tucano? Surely, not that hard?
Whatever happens, with a reduced fleet to feed pilots to, and a fleet of Grobs that are starting to show their fragility, it is time to start thinking radically. It must be time to renegotiate with Ascent for MFTS and come up with a system that will deliver at 24IPS - not one that can hardly deliver efficiently at half that.
LJ
Take it from me, Cranwell has stacks of capacity to absorb 24IPS (and some), both for flying and domestic support, plus plenty of airspace. Either Cranwell needs to shut or Linton - guess which?
I agree about Valley, and that is another option. How difficult is it to clear an internal immersion suit for Tucano? Surely, not that hard?
Whatever happens, with a reduced fleet to feed pilots to, and a fleet of Grobs that are starting to show their fragility, it is time to start thinking radically. It must be time to renegotiate with Ascent for MFTS and come up with a system that will deliver at 24IPS - not one that can hardly deliver efficiently at half that.
LJ
Cranwell is overloaded (or was until last week
) with both visual circuit & radar traffic. The airspace is so busy that new deconfliction measures will shortly be unveiled to mitigate against the airprox/mis-air collision risk. And as for "...little going on at Wyton apart from EFT/UAS/AEF." well you can join a lot of other folk who clearly consider over 3500 movements per year, with an average of over 100 per day for the last 4 years (that includes Sat & Sun too) to be "little going on".
Compare that level of activity with the MOBs and you'll start to get the picture.Again, far too many folk on here think they know what's going on, think they can identify the problems and think they know the best solutions. Personally, I'll leave it to those still in the service who are in a position to know & do something about it. There are always other factors which those outside are simply unaware of. Just because "we did it like this" in the olden days doesn't mean it would work today.
1066 - a lot of questions, some of which may be relevant, and if they are then they will be addressed by the right people, but not on this forum.
Tucanos used to be immersion suit compatible, but the clearance was removed. The reason why means re-clearing it would be immensely difficult. The canopy is certainly an issue but not the only one, I doubt we'll ever fly them in their current form with goon bags.
Regarding airspace, I think Leeming or Valley would be the only sensible option. There's still a lot of low flying in the BFJT syllabus, and LFA11 doesn't really cut it. I don't think there's room at Cranwell for 72(R) Sqn, and certainly not room in the circuit unless they found another RLG?
My comments on accommodation were based on a mate who's just been posted to Waddington, to find a bit of an accommodation crisis across all of RAF Lincolnshire. He nearly ended up in Kirton in Lindsey!
Regarding airspace, I think Leeming or Valley would be the only sensible option. There's still a lot of low flying in the BFJT syllabus, and LFA11 doesn't really cut it. I don't think there's room at Cranwell for 72(R) Sqn, and certainly not room in the circuit unless they found another RLG?
My comments on accommodation were based on a mate who's just been posted to Waddington, to find a bit of an accommodation crisis across all of RAF Lincolnshire. He nearly ended up in Kirton in Lindsey!
Last edited by 5 Forward 6 Back; 13th Jan 2013 at 16:03.
OK, I get it.
But I still don't think keeping Linton open for 24IPS can possibly be worthwhile? Even with some studes drummed up by International Defence Training. How about Wittering or Leeming? I've been to both of them recently as well and both were also pretty quiet.
I thought we were supposed to be rationalising the Defence Estate? Don't they know we're skint!
But I still don't think keeping Linton open for 24IPS can possibly be worthwhile? Even with some studes drummed up by International Defence Training. How about Wittering or Leeming? I've been to both of them recently as well and both were also pretty quiet.
I thought we were supposed to be rationalising the Defence Estate? Don't they know we're skint!
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 13th Jan 2013 at 23:08.
JAJ
My internal calculator baulked at these numbers. 100 movements per day (inlcuding Sat & Sun) is 36,500 movements - that would be busier than Leeds Bradford in a year. I don't think so! 
well you can join a lot of other folk who clearly consider over 3500 movements per year, with an average of over 100 per day for the last 4 years (that includes Sat & Sun too) to be "little going on".
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 13th Jan 2013 at 23:15.
Qfeye
When did I say I was stating things "with authority"? This is a rumour forum for discussing stuff just like you would in the crewroom. If you don't like my 'authorative tone' - tough
LJ
When did I say I was stating things "with authority"? This is a rumour forum for discussing stuff just like you would in the crewroom. If you don't like my 'authorative tone' - tough
LJ
Originally Posted by LJ
My internal calculator baulked at these numbers. 100 movements per day (inlcuding Sat & Sun) is 36,500 movements - that would be busier than Leeds Bradford in a year. I don't think so!
- any touchdown (roller or landing) is the norm I believe. All 15-17 a/c airborne at once is not unknown and don't forget the AEF do 20-25 min sorties plus lots of circuits to be taught and practiced so average of 100 per day is understandable I guess. Average is a different timescale from total number and they're all rounded down anyway.It's this kind of misunderstanding of the amount of flying at EFT and other Tutor bases amongst the RAF & GA that leads to cock-all support for flying ops at Wyton yet it's busier than most of the MOBs added together.
My bad on the dropped zero.
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I know that this thread has drifted in a few directions, however, some of you must keep up. When the RAF gets a new basic trainer and gets rid of EFT there will be loads of room at Cranwell both in the Messes and in the circuit. Cranwell could do all basic up to streaming, 100hrs ish, and multi engine advanced. Valley could do stage 2 basic and fast jet advanced.
... which would be great if, as I said a few posts ago, we could afford to send everyone through a Tucano-equivalent course like we used to.
We'd all love to ditch the Tutor, slim down EFT, and instead send everyone through Linton before streaming after 100 hours, then give the FJ guys another 100 hours there before sending them to the Hawk. In reality though they're never going to pay for that.
We'd all love to ditch the Tutor, slim down EFT, and instead send everyone through Linton before streaming after 100 hours, then give the FJ guys another 100 hours there before sending them to the Hawk. In reality though they're never going to pay for that.
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Other EFT/BFT options?
2 pennys worth.......
Keep the G115s for AEFs and maybe grading duties but with new props.
What about EFT/BFT?
Back in the days of JEFTS when all 3 services flew EFT and MELIN together on Firefly (UAS had Bulldog and later G115), the Tincan was grounded for a while and the RAF did a study for 100h T67M260 to Hawk.
Some studes went to Canada in the end: NFTC
The idea of downloading expensive training onto cheaper platforms works if the platform has enough versatility. Adding weight and glass cockpits to an already slow machine that might be alright for AEFs isn't going to cut the mustard. Most of the yellow 260hp Fireflies have gone abroad.
Replacing EFT and BFT with one platform might have financial and training merit.
PC21 is a very fine machine but extremely expensive. The Grob 120TP could work. Or alternatively an updated version of that other German machine that the Luftwaffe wanted (it beat PC7 and others in 1985 eval testing):
RFB Fantrainer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
fanjetaviation.com: Home
But, having bought F4s and F104s, the German Govt used US/Arizona based scheme instead Factsheets : Euro-NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training Program (ENJJPT)
Royal Thai AF used FT400 and FT600 for >20 years but had very different locally made wings instead of original composite ones.
Other options might be to use other Allied/NATO facilities that have been drawn down with cut backs or pool resources to form a European Military Flight Training School. Or lease civi aircraft from UK flying schools.
There is even a conference on the subject here: IQPC Military Flight Training 2013
Keep the G115s for AEFs and maybe grading duties but with new props.
What about EFT/BFT?
Back in the days of JEFTS when all 3 services flew EFT and MELIN together on Firefly (UAS had Bulldog and later G115), the Tincan was grounded for a while and the RAF did a study for 100h T67M260 to Hawk.
Some studes went to Canada in the end: NFTC
The idea of downloading expensive training onto cheaper platforms works if the platform has enough versatility. Adding weight and glass cockpits to an already slow machine that might be alright for AEFs isn't going to cut the mustard. Most of the yellow 260hp Fireflies have gone abroad.
Replacing EFT and BFT with one platform might have financial and training merit.
PC21 is a very fine machine but extremely expensive. The Grob 120TP could work. Or alternatively an updated version of that other German machine that the Luftwaffe wanted (it beat PC7 and others in 1985 eval testing):
RFB Fantrainer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
fanjetaviation.com: Home
But, having bought F4s and F104s, the German Govt used US/Arizona based scheme instead Factsheets : Euro-NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training Program (ENJJPT)
Royal Thai AF used FT400 and FT600 for >20 years but had very different locally made wings instead of original composite ones.
Other options might be to use other Allied/NATO facilities that have been drawn down with cut backs or pool resources to form a European Military Flight Training School. Or lease civi aircraft from UK flying schools.
There is even a conference on the subject here: IQPC Military Flight Training 2013
With a small Hawk T2 buy, there were already moves afoot to download a lot of the old 208(R) training to BFJT so the Hawk could be reserved for more tactical stuff. When I was last at Linton they were introducing more complex tactical formation and a few other things so it could be refreshed on the Hawk rather than taught from scratch.
If you cut out the Tucano stage, and jump straight from a SEP to a Hawk, then you're going to need to do a lot of extra flying on the jet to compensate.
The best solution is undoubtedly a decent basic trainer. A PC21 would be great. An M311 equivalent, a small jet (modern small jets don't have the issues that led most people to look at a performance turboprop in the role, so why not?), and a long course that gives everyone a solid grounding in military flying disciplines before streaming would be even better.
Trouble is, our current scheme works. We have guys flying Hercules and Chinook who never flew a Tucano and aren't found wanting, so who's going to pony up the money to give everyone more flying in a more expensive aircraft? EFT in its current guise works.
Given our tiny fleet of T2s, we could do with a better basic trainer to fill the gap more, and cover both the old BFJT syllabus and the old FJAFT one. What I can see happening, though, is someone working out the cost of sending a pilot through EFT, then translating that into Tucano hours, and adding that number of Tucano hours to the first half of BFJT. Stream them at BHT and see if they can hack it. Would you get the same product if you replaced 60 Tutor hours with 10 Tucano ones?
If you cut out the Tucano stage, and jump straight from a SEP to a Hawk, then you're going to need to do a lot of extra flying on the jet to compensate.
The best solution is undoubtedly a decent basic trainer. A PC21 would be great. An M311 equivalent, a small jet (modern small jets don't have the issues that led most people to look at a performance turboprop in the role, so why not?), and a long course that gives everyone a solid grounding in military flying disciplines before streaming would be even better.
Trouble is, our current scheme works. We have guys flying Hercules and Chinook who never flew a Tucano and aren't found wanting, so who's going to pony up the money to give everyone more flying in a more expensive aircraft? EFT in its current guise works.
Given our tiny fleet of T2s, we could do with a better basic trainer to fill the gap more, and cover both the old BFJT syllabus and the old FJAFT one. What I can see happening, though, is someone working out the cost of sending a pilot through EFT, then translating that into Tucano hours, and adding that number of Tucano hours to the first half of BFJT. Stream them at BHT and see if they can hack it. Would you get the same product if you replaced 60 Tutor hours with 10 Tucano ones?
Originally Posted by 5 Forward 6 Back
Would you get the same product if you replaced 60 Tutor hours with 10 Tucano ones?
Could someone just remind me why we want to get rid of EFT/G115E?
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The messes are virtually empty at Cranwell and the airspace is pretty empty as well
I would hardly call Waddington's circuit "clogged up". If the King Airs didn't come the WAD ATCOs would probably run out of currency! I also expect that the instructors like coming to WAD because it's near, it's not too busy and it gives the student a different pattern and plate to practise on.
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I would hardly call Waddington's circuit "clogged up".
Edit: It may not look busy but an a/c on a squillion mile radar approach still stops you from getting off. As for the guys and gals in ATC, they invariably do what they can for us and tend to be rather excellent; indeed some of the braver souls will come up to see what an instrument approach is like from the noisy end.
Willard, where are these non Cranwell King Airs likely to be from? I'm not up to speed anymore on where MoD assets are.
Last edited by thing; 16th Jan 2013 at 09:59.