Aircraft crashed at RAF Cranwell
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Is the deal that bad ?
Is the PFI deal really as bad as Coffman makes out ?
Looking at the money Babcock pay the maintenance guys it would suggest that their manpower costs are less than having service personel working the aircraft.
It would be an interesting debate, can someone out there bring any clarity to this without suggesting that the maintenance hungry oil slick that was the Chipmunk a better aircraft for the task.
( yes I Know the Chipmunk is a delight to fly )
Looking at the money Babcock pay the maintenance guys it would suggest that their manpower costs are less than having service personel working the aircraft.
It would be an interesting debate, can someone out there bring any clarity to this without suggesting that the maintenance hungry oil slick that was the Chipmunk a better aircraft for the task.
( yes I Know the Chipmunk is a delight to fly )
May or may not be but it does look like this a/c needs a different prop (assuming latest F/L prop related)...so far the RAF has 'got away' with it but sooner or later somebody is going to get hurt...
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Never a fan of plastic planes as your really limited repair wise, think the main issues with the Tutor is the prop, it seem to remember when Hunting did the trials it wasn't the testers favourite. Chipmunk with a Lycoming would probably have been the best of both worlds. At least you could repair it, or bring back the Bulldog.
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I probably worked in every one of those... We did the acceptance for Hunting when they arrived...
Last edited by NutLoose; 9th Jan 2013 at 21:39.
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Nutloose
You could not be more compleatly and utterly wrong about the repair of composite structures.
The problem is that in a traditionally metal bashing industry there is little or no understanding of composite repair techniques.
The problem is that in a traditionally metal bashing industry there is little or no understanding of composite repair techniques.
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I do both, but you belt a wing badly on a metal aircraft I can reskin and respar it, can't do it on a plastic one.
Last edited by NutLoose; 9th Jan 2013 at 21:41.
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Respar.
We have repaired badly broken composite wings by scarfing the spar, as I said the metal centric industry has failed to get a grip on composite repair techniques.
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"Maintenance hungry oil slick" - I like that! But it has more charisma than "The Little White Grub".
The Portuguese Air Force Academy successfully operates six Chipmunks which it has re-engined with Lycomings (like some of the glider tugs here). Even so, it would be hugely expensive to put it back into production, as would be the case with the Bulldog.
Irrespective of the platform, the training machine will be vulnerable to any new airworthiness issue which might arise. Provided you have the back-up, and adequate stocks of spares, then these problems can be overcome quite quickly - but back-up and stocks of spares are not 'lean'. You get what you pay for.
The Portuguese Air Force Academy successfully operates six Chipmunks which it has re-engined with Lycomings (like some of the glider tugs here). Even so, it would be hugely expensive to put it back into production, as would be the case with the Bulldog.
Irrespective of the platform, the training machine will be vulnerable to any new airworthiness issue which might arise. Provided you have the back-up, and adequate stocks of spares, then these problems can be overcome quite quickly - but back-up and stocks of spares are not 'lean'. You get what you pay for.
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Ahhhhh! Chipmunks - ideal for training pilots to use there feet - now a lost art but also it seems not required! Piston mod has reduced oil usage significantly however (and being an owner) the ongoing maintainance is extensive.
Quick note, civilian Chipmunks with Lycomings are not allowed to be aerobatted (this also includes the Portugese ones) - most are used for glider towing or as the Portugese do, very basic flight training.
Quick note, civilian Chipmunks with Lycomings are not allowed to be aerobatted (this also includes the Portugese ones) - most are used for glider towing or as the Portugese do, very basic flight training.
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Proplover: You are correct about the UK clearance for the Lyco Chipmunks in the UK, and the fact that the Portuguese conversions are modelled on the UK design finalised by the late Dick Stratton.
However, the Portuguese DO aerobat them - their delegation to the Duxford conference in January 2012 said they are flying to Role Factor 2.5. Their engines havn't dropped out - yet!
However, the Portuguese DO aerobat them - their delegation to the Duxford conference in January 2012 said they are flying to Role Factor 2.5. Their engines havn't dropped out - yet!
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Mandator
It's not just the engine that is the problem with the Chipmunk, the airframe is riddled with maintenance hungry items and parts that are unique to the aircraft.
For example there is a bolt on the tail wheel that costs £75 and has to be drilled to take a split pin, to replace the item will take about an hour and a half, the equivalent item on a Super Cub cost about £6 ( standard AN part) comes pre-drilled and can be fitted in 15 min.
The chipmunk is an aircraft from an age were labour was cheap.
Now back to the subject, any more detailed damage reports on the little white grub........ Sorry Grob !
For example there is a bolt on the tail wheel that costs £75 and has to be drilled to take a split pin, to replace the item will take about an hour and a half, the equivalent item on a Super Cub cost about £6 ( standard AN part) comes pre-drilled and can be fitted in 15 min.
The chipmunk is an aircraft from an age were labour was cheap.
Now back to the subject, any more detailed damage reports on the little white grub........ Sorry Grob !
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Is it not time to stop all of this ridiculous talk about Grobs, Fireflys, Chipmunks and Bulldogs. Now is the opportunity to buy/lease the correct ac for the RAF. The throughput will now be so small that we only require a small fleet of ac. There are other air forces that can show us the way. Only 2 ac from the start to OCU, that is possible because it has been proven. Hours and hours of low cost flying in an inadequate ac does not provide the best flying training, or the best value for money
Gentleman Aviator
Ahhhhh! Chipmunks - ideal for training pilots to use their feet - now a lost art but also it seems not required!
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I think that things are afoot in the direction that you are thinking, I am told that some defense contractors are proposing a three aircraft solution to the training issue.
I think that it is Gama Support & Babcock who are looking at a big Avionic upgrade to the latest of the Grob 115 fleet, this will give a more or less common Avionic and navigation system between the Grob, the next step up that is likely to be the Beech turbo prop that the USAF use and the Hawk. Not quite the two steps that you propose but I can't help thinking that a few hours on a very cheap piston aircraft will inexpensivly weed out those would not stand the whole course while having a standard Avionic fit will allow quicker progress to those who are successful.
On the other hand maybe even the Grob is over the top for the inital few hours of flying grading, for years the Israel used the Piper Super Cub for the first few hours of training and that is an Air Force that does not seem to have any quality control problems with the finished product.
I think that it is Gama Support & Babcock who are looking at a big Avionic upgrade to the latest of the Grob 115 fleet, this will give a more or less common Avionic and navigation system between the Grob, the next step up that is likely to be the Beech turbo prop that the USAF use and the Hawk. Not quite the two steps that you propose but I can't help thinking that a few hours on a very cheap piston aircraft will inexpensivly weed out those would not stand the whole course while having a standard Avionic fit will allow quicker progress to those who are successful.
On the other hand maybe even the Grob is over the top for the inital few hours of flying grading, for years the Israel used the Piper Super Cub for the first few hours of training and that is an Air Force that does not seem to have any quality control problems with the finished product.
Last edited by A and C; 10th Jan 2013 at 10:12.
Nutloose, if you think these plastic aeroplanes can't be repaired I suggest you take a trip to RAF Syerston where they have been repairing the RAFs fleet of composite aircraft for years. Some of the damage repaired on these aircrart would have had a metal airframe consigned to the melting pot rather than continuing in service.
When it came time to replace the Bulldog there were three aircraft in the race, the Grob 115, Robin 2160 and the Firefly. I had a small part in the selection process and it was obvious from the start that the RAF wanted the Grob and the selection process was purely a formality. Even if the 115 had been the worst of the three, the RAF was having it.
When it came time to replace the Bulldog there were three aircraft in the race, the Grob 115, Robin 2160 and the Firefly. I had a small part in the selection process and it was obvious from the start that the RAF wanted the Grob and the selection process was purely a formality. Even if the 115 had been the worst of the three, the RAF was having it.
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A and C ... I've got nothing against composite built aircraft. I do admit, however, to a life long love affair with the Chipmunk ... IMHO it was the "ideal" Primary Training package ... that's not to say other aircraft couldn't do the job. I do however think that PFI type arrangements dilute the prestige of the RAF ... and that's a purley personal opinion.
Maybe we could borrow the RAF Supermunk ... knock up a few moulds and then get cracking with some Carbon Fiber and a bit of resin and Bob's your Uncle. Nutty can handle the Lycoming spec for us ... with modern materials we might even improve on the original
Maybe we could borrow the RAF Supermunk ... knock up a few moulds and then get cracking with some Carbon Fiber and a bit of resin and Bob's your Uncle. Nutty can handle the Lycoming spec for us ... with modern materials we might even improve on the original