MPA announced 2015?
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[quote
We will be able to fit 8 – 10 at Waddington when the E-3D is cancelled next
year and we join the NATO E-3 pool and forward base them
(now that would save money, where is that GEMS form!)
[/quote]
Actually, not true....
The UK is a signatory of the NATO AEW Force. Our contribution to that force is 6 x E-3D aircraft. If we scrap the E-3D and "join" the NATO force then we will have to find money to contribute to the costs of the NATO E-3A, and considering the costs being incurred in their troubled mid-life update then I think that we would lose out on the deal (although much depends upon E-3D update costs in the next 10 years of course).
We will be able to fit 8 – 10 at Waddington when the E-3D is cancelled next
year and we join the NATO E-3 pool and forward base them
(now that would save money, where is that GEMS form!)
[/quote]
Actually, not true....
The UK is a signatory of the NATO AEW Force. Our contribution to that force is 6 x E-3D aircraft. If we scrap the E-3D and "join" the NATO force then we will have to find money to contribute to the costs of the NATO E-3A, and considering the costs being incurred in their troubled mid-life update then I think that we would lose out on the deal (although much depends upon E-3D update costs in the next 10 years of course).
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Wensleydale, was just starting a rumour but you raise a very important point
and
So basically they are almost through the problems that seem to hit most military projects, we haven't even started yet! And this time we don't have a blank cheque. I know where you are coming from re. the costs but I don't believe it would cost us as much as operating our own bespoke fleet with its support cost, etc.
although much depends upon E-3D update costs in the next 10 years of course
NATO E-3A, and considering the costs being incurred in their troubled mid-life update
Re removal of MAD:
LJ, I assume that these are the 'more modern and remote sensors' of which you speak.
Hope the MAC buoys are really good - attack criteria is going to rely an awful lot on it.
BTW, I totally agree the MRA4 is dead, that is why we are discussing possible replacement platforms.
The Indians need to be informed that they are totally wrong in insisting that MAD be fitted.
For some of the new sub-hunting technologies, Rondeau argued, going higher actually gives you a better look. Today, for example, one key tool is a kind of air-dropped buoy that hits the water and then explodes, sending out a powerful pulse of sound that travels a long way through the water and reflects off the hulls of submarines, creating sonar signals that other, listening-device buoys then pick up. (The technical name is Improved Extended Echo Ranging, or IEER). Obviously, an explosive buoy can only be used once, and the sonar signal its detonation generates is not precisely calibrated. So the Navy is developing a new kind of buoy called MAC (Multistatic Active Coherent), which generates sound electronically, allowing it to emit multiple, precise pulses before its battery runs down.
"It will last longer and you're able to do more things with it," Rondeau said. And because a field of MAC buoys can cover a wider search area, he said, "we need to stay up high... to be able to receive data from all these buoys and control all these buoys at the same time."
"It will last longer and you're able to do more things with it," Rondeau said. And because a field of MAC buoys can cover a wider search area, he said, "we need to stay up high... to be able to receive data from all these buoys and control all these buoys at the same time."
Hope the MAC buoys are really good - attack criteria is going to rely an awful lot on it.
BTW, I totally agree the MRA4 is dead, that is why we are discussing possible replacement platforms.
The Indians need to be informed that they are totally wrong in insisting that MAD be fitted.
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Heathrow Harry,
1/ The Russians are not, and will not, be the only threat the UK need to face
2/ LRMPA is not just about those damn boats that keep sinking
3/ Russia is constructing submarines to replace those that go out of service as they come to the end of their life. These new submarines are proving to be quite effective. Have a wee read of this short article here
4/ The Chinese are developing their own fleet of modern submarines. China has stated that it wishes to be able to back up its status as a super power through projection of its military. To this end it is developing and upgrading all systems, including aircraft, aircraft carriers, submarines, destroyers, frigates etc.
5/ Russia and China are not the only potential aggressors for the UK.
6/ UK interests are not just the defence of the UK, but also the defence of UK interests. UK interests includes continuation of food supplies, protection of allies, intelligence collection
7/ LRMPA work well either above the sea or above land.
Given that the Russian Navy is a shadow of its former self that is understandable - we really don't require the capacity to chase SSBN's any more
2/ LRMPA is not just about those damn boats that keep sinking
3/ Russia is constructing submarines to replace those that go out of service as they come to the end of their life. These new submarines are proving to be quite effective. Have a wee read of this short article here
4/ The Chinese are developing their own fleet of modern submarines. China has stated that it wishes to be able to back up its status as a super power through projection of its military. To this end it is developing and upgrading all systems, including aircraft, aircraft carriers, submarines, destroyers, frigates etc.
5/ Russia and China are not the only potential aggressors for the UK.
6/ UK interests are not just the defence of the UK, but also the defence of UK interests. UK interests includes continuation of food supplies, protection of allies, intelligence collection
7/ LRMPA work well either above the sea or above land.
Nah, C-130J 'Sea Hercules' is the way to go... http://www.lockheedmartin.co.uk/cont...e_Aircraft.pdf
Bags of radius, bags of time on task, AAR capable, good mission kit and who fancies Small Diameter Bomb, Hellfire, Harpoon and a 30mm cannon for those pesky drug smugglers?!!!
RAF Scampton, Leeming, Wittering or Cranwell aren't too busy and are pretty central.
LJ
PS. The J model was obviously so unsuited to Maritime roles that the US Coastguard have just placed another order for more last month!
U.S. Coast Guard Adds To C-130J Fleet
Bags of radius, bags of time on task, AAR capable, good mission kit and who fancies Small Diameter Bomb, Hellfire, Harpoon and a 30mm cannon for those pesky drug smugglers?!!!
RAF Scampton, Leeming, Wittering or Cranwell aren't too busy and are pretty central.
LJ
PS. The J model was obviously so unsuited to Maritime roles that the US Coastguard have just placed another order for more last month!
U.S. Coast Guard Adds To C-130J Fleet
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 18th Nov 2012 at 13:26.
Base in the centre(ish) of the UK? ISTR the Neptunes (P2s) were based at Topcliffe.
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MARITIME MAC
The last deployment of a Nimrod to the Eastern Mediterranean provoked a tirade of stories from 142 Sqn’s Maritime Mac. Memories of his time on 204 Sqn, crew 10 flying out of RAF St Mawgloss provided an insight of his past exploits flying countless ASWEXs, TRACKEXs, CASEXs and SCALETRIXs. Clearly moved, he recounted how, almost single handily, his Sqn had kept he Soviet submarine hordes at bay flying aggressive diet defying patrols low over the blue and briny. It was obvious Maritime Mac had lost none of the banter, talk of little buoys, deployed in rows, braced against lines of penetration brought tears to his eyes. Unfortunately, hours of probing every crevice of the Soviet Navies Armour had taken made its mark on Mac, his mind being programmed to react, like Pavlov’s dog, to special words and phrases. ‘Mark Mark’ he shouts when startled from a quiet moment of thought. Looking around a little disoriented and embarrassed he explains to others in the boutique that he was sure he had spotted a Stork and Mask trying to evade capture.
Other members of the elite ex-maritime club joined Mac in the telling of Maritime Myths. Hours of fun on the Marlin Head, sandwich fillings, Mars Bars and Radar Homeboys. Joining the ASDA cue and being sent off to protect limiting lines of submerged approach and not really understanding what that meant but trying your best for Queen and Country. Quiet huddles where knowing glances and much touching of noses were seen on several occasions, signifying a mutual awareness of something special that non-ex-maritimers were not privy; Operation TAPESTRY, 8 hours of needle work and crochet or Operation COUNTERSTROKE, an even longer mission caressing the scruff bar’s top surfaces. See far shadow and near-field drop out jokes were a plenty as were stories of how much you can eat on SAR without having to pay a penny.
During the Akrotiri detachment Mac was also seen in the company of ex-maritime pilots who tell unbelievable stories of flying with engines turned off and using more than 7 degrees of bank. Maritime Mac reminded one gathering of salty dogs of a trip when they got airborne from RAF Mawgloss flew for only 2 hours and landed somewhere foreign. At this place they also had Nimrods but most of them did not work and the crewmembers were all called Duncan or Frazer and smelled of 70/-. All the women in this strange cold place had red hair and freckles. Nobody could remember where the place was but all agreed that they did not want to go back!
Other members of the elite ex-maritime club joined Mac in the telling of Maritime Myths. Hours of fun on the Marlin Head, sandwich fillings, Mars Bars and Radar Homeboys. Joining the ASDA cue and being sent off to protect limiting lines of submerged approach and not really understanding what that meant but trying your best for Queen and Country. Quiet huddles where knowing glances and much touching of noses were seen on several occasions, signifying a mutual awareness of something special that non-ex-maritimers were not privy; Operation TAPESTRY, 8 hours of needle work and crochet or Operation COUNTERSTROKE, an even longer mission caressing the scruff bar’s top surfaces. See far shadow and near-field drop out jokes were a plenty as were stories of how much you can eat on SAR without having to pay a penny.
During the Akrotiri detachment Mac was also seen in the company of ex-maritime pilots who tell unbelievable stories of flying with engines turned off and using more than 7 degrees of bank. Maritime Mac reminded one gathering of salty dogs of a trip when they got airborne from RAF Mawgloss flew for only 2 hours and landed somewhere foreign. At this place they also had Nimrods but most of them did not work and the crewmembers were all called Duncan or Frazer and smelled of 70/-. All the women in this strange cold place had red hair and freckles. Nobody could remember where the place was but all agreed that they did not want to go back!
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I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
4/ The Chinese are developing their own fleet of modern submarines. China has stated that it wishes to be able to back up its status as a super power through projection of its military. To this end it is developing and upgrading all systems, including aircraft, aircraft carriers, submarines, destroyers, frigates etc.
Any UK MPA should be established for a credible threat to the UK base and not for some notional global role.
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Pontious Navigator,
Plenty of goods that we import come from around the Pacific. If threatened there might be a requirement to provide some form of insurance. You are correct that we would be unlikely to deploy to the Pacific, for the reasons stated and due to the fact that we do not currently have the necessary resources, but who knows.
Something I did leave of my list was anti piracy coordination.
Plenty of goods that we import come from around the Pacific. If threatened there might be a requirement to provide some form of insurance. You are correct that we would be unlikely to deploy to the Pacific, for the reasons stated and due to the fact that we do not currently have the necessary resources, but who knows.
Something I did leave of my list was anti piracy coordination.
Huey
But the drawings and development has already been done (Google SC-130J and Coastguard C-130J). Marshalls of Cambridge have agreed to do the work. It's cheap and when A400M comes on line we will have some surplus C-130Js.
Seems a no-brainer to me
iRaven
Plug-in, roll-on/off kit requires lots of airframe mods and holes cutting in ac skins for aerials etc. Costly and time consuming..
Seems a no-brainer to me
iRaven
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
hval, indupitably. However in a resources race there is no obvious way that we could extend any significant or realistic military force against another world power.
Whilst a multi-capable maritime weapons system could effect anti-piracy coordination, do you need something like an MPA? There are plenty of other platforms that can do that.
Didn't someone just say that it was a nonsense piting a half billion pound warship against a rust bucket pirate ship and a skiff with an outboard motor. Add the astronomic cost of an MRA4 and you would be well into fairy land.
Whilst a multi-capable maritime weapons system could effect anti-piracy coordination, do you need something like an MPA? There are plenty of other platforms that can do that.
Didn't someone just say that it was a nonsense piting a half billion pound warship against a rust bucket pirate ship and a skiff with an outboard motor. Add the astronomic cost of an MRA4 and you would be well into fairy land.
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LJ thanks for the link, it sounds so simple to build an MPA. It failed to mention ASW which is our core requirement, or compare the operating cost per hour with the various real MPA platforms.
Not much ground clearance to load the bombays shown in some photos, also looks like the radar is a compromise due to available space and not as capable as real LRMPA.
USCG have a very different mission requirement, we have a separate AT fleet. As for A2G weapons, we needed them 10 years ago but it never happened.
If it could actually do all the things LM say (and ASW) and our service were forward thinking enough to get all the options to give it all the extra capabilities it would be great, sounds very expensive though.
Re SAAB 2000 MPA, it also only exists on paper.
P-3 or P-8 are the only sensible option for our requirement, perhaps updated Atlantique 2.
I'm not the biggest P-8 fan but it will do what we want and a future force of ISR platforms based on the 737 airframe would make a lot of sense,
Lexington Institute
MPA in 5 years, AEW in 10 years and ELINT/SIGINT in 15 years and we have a 'common' fleet with mahoosive savings in so many areas, another GEMS! It will never happen
Not much ground clearance to load the bombays shown in some photos, also looks like the radar is a compromise due to available space and not as capable as real LRMPA.
USCG have a very different mission requirement, we have a separate AT fleet. As for A2G weapons, we needed them 10 years ago but it never happened.
If it could actually do all the things LM say (and ASW) and our service were forward thinking enough to get all the options to give it all the extra capabilities it would be great, sounds very expensive though.
Re SAAB 2000 MPA, it also only exists on paper.
P-3 or P-8 are the only sensible option for our requirement, perhaps updated Atlantique 2.
I'm not the biggest P-8 fan but it will do what we want and a future force of ISR platforms based on the 737 airframe would make a lot of sense,
Lexington Institute
MPA in 5 years, AEW in 10 years and ELINT/SIGINT in 15 years and we have a 'common' fleet with mahoosive savings in so many areas, another GEMS! It will never happen
Last edited by Ivan Rogov; 18th Nov 2012 at 20:26.