MPA announced 2015?
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If I may. I am not a MPA type but have had a fondness for them throughout my career. I know not much of what they do. I tried to pay attention to the salinity and temperature stuff the metocs used to come up with...but never understood it. However:-
If I, being a carrier orientated type bloke, and a MPA sort were stood in front of CDS, the Queen or even the great fighter pilot in the sky - me in my dark blue smartest, the crab in his light blue, errr, 'smartest' and we were given the choice: Carriers or MPA. What would I do? I would offer the crab my hand and wish him well with his new machine then wander off to blub into my beer (again).
A nation with our great heritage of sea power and aviation having no carriers is an embarassment.
A small island nation having no MPA is retarded.
There you go, no help whatsoever to the debate but thought you ought to know. Fly safely everyone.
If I, being a carrier orientated type bloke, and a MPA sort were stood in front of CDS, the Queen or even the great fighter pilot in the sky - me in my dark blue smartest, the crab in his light blue, errr, 'smartest' and we were given the choice: Carriers or MPA. What would I do? I would offer the crab my hand and wish him well with his new machine then wander off to blub into my beer (again).
A nation with our great heritage of sea power and aviation having no carriers is an embarassment.
A small island nation having no MPA is retarded.
There you go, no help whatsoever to the debate but thought you ought to know. Fly safely everyone.
pitotheat
In higher circles, the RN are making a stronger case for LRMPA than the RAF, who incidentally, also have a few key players confirming the need. The capability requirement is fully recognised by all and sundry. SDSR did not scrap the requirement, it just scrapped the MRA4.
So the real and only question to be asked is can we afford to spend money on a replacement over the next few years? Probably not is the answer but the hope is that the next SDSR acknowledges the need a bit more strongly and the start of a replacement process can at least be baselined for the coming years.
If the RN aren't making a case for LRMPA then how can the RAF make the case? Move on there is nothing to see here.
So the real and only question to be asked is can we afford to spend money on a replacement over the next few years? Probably not is the answer but the hope is that the next SDSR acknowledges the need a bit more strongly and the start of a replacement process can at least be baselined for the coming years.
What Party animal just said ... the Nimrod MRA Mark 4 was scrapped not the role.
Our esteemed CAS (?) said to us all at Kinloss days after the scrapping announcement
"it's just the aircraft that has been scrapped, the role is extant."
Although this thread is about a new kite, the real struggle is going to be to get enough trained crews ready to resume the role.
The recent RAF recruitment ad may be an indication of this ... on the other hand it may just be a 'cut and paste' error. We will still need people in the back of the new Chinooks we are going to get post 2015 to transport soldiers we no longer have to places we no longer want to go to.
Our esteemed CAS (?) said to us all at Kinloss days after the scrapping announcement
"it's just the aircraft that has been scrapped, the role is extant."
Although this thread is about a new kite, the real struggle is going to be to get enough trained crews ready to resume the role.
The recent RAF recruitment ad may be an indication of this ... on the other hand it may just be a 'cut and paste' error. We will still need people in the back of the new Chinooks we are going to get post 2015 to transport soldiers we no longer have to places we no longer want to go to.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: South of Watford
Posts: 896
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But if Party Animal were right and the RN still required its kit protecting by some form of LRMPA then it is being very quiet about it. I have not heard a single comment from a dark blue senior officer bemoaning this loss in capability. I would think with 2 flat tops being built and replacement SSBN being staffed and R & D there would have been some form of reaction from senior naval officers.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: SWAPS Inner
Posts: 567
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thats cos the Fish-heads want it to be THEIR trainset, when it arrives. They are setting a political ambush for when the role is revived. Why let common sense get in the way of politics.... They should stick to playing with their 'aircraftless' carriers.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Far North of Watford
Age: 82
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thunderbird
Why is is common sense for the crabs to operate LRMPA rather than the fisheads? It has always seemed to me, with my purple knowledge and experience and with no axe to grind, chip on shoulder etc, that common sense dictates that LRMPA is clearly a naval task.
Why is is common sense for the crabs to operate LRMPA rather than the fisheads? It has always seemed to me, with my purple knowledge and experience and with no axe to grind, chip on shoulder etc, that common sense dictates that LRMPA is clearly a naval task.
pitotheat
What Thunderbird7 said.
Regrettably the RAF's senior leadership can only think in terms of "exquisite technology", fast jet numbers and UAVs (or the new latest Gucci toys - UCAS). Anything else is not worth worrying about and is viewed as an annoying sideline.
Genstabbler
You make a fair point and no doubt someone will soon be on here saying that all other nations MPA are run by their navies (except the Aussies, Canadians, Kiwis, Russians, Norwegians, Chileans, South Africans etc etc). The great thing about a properly equipped multi-mission platform is that it can be used in many more roles than just MPA - if needed. Think ISTAR rather than just MPA. I guess it doesn't really matter in the long run, as long as you have the required capability.
What Thunderbird7 said.
Regrettably the RAF's senior leadership can only think in terms of "exquisite technology", fast jet numbers and UAVs (or the new latest Gucci toys - UCAS). Anything else is not worth worrying about and is viewed as an annoying sideline.
Genstabbler
You make a fair point and no doubt someone will soon be on here saying that all other nations MPA are run by their navies (except the Aussies, Canadians, Kiwis, Russians, Norwegians, Chileans, South Africans etc etc). The great thing about a properly equipped multi-mission platform is that it can be used in many more roles than just MPA - if needed. Think ISTAR rather than just MPA. I guess it doesn't really matter in the long run, as long as you have the required capability.
Last edited by Roland Pulfrew; 21st Nov 2012 at 09:33.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: troon
Age: 61
Posts: 551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thunderbird
Why is is common sense for the crabs to operate LRMPA rather than the fisheads? It has always seemed to me, with my purple knowledge and experience and with no axe to grind, chip on shoulder etc, that common sense dictates that LRMPA is clearly a naval task.
Why is is common sense for the crabs to operate LRMPA rather than the fisheads? It has always seemed to me, with my purple knowledge and experience and with no axe to grind, chip on shoulder etc, that common sense dictates that LRMPA is clearly a naval task.
RN Budgeted - They want it, they pay for it
RN Controlled - Under CINCFLEET, they are regarded as "Flying Frigates" after all.
RN/RAF Operated - RAF Provide the Pilots and Maintainers. RN provide the WSO's and Plane Captain.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,515
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What Party animal just said ... the Nimrod MRA Mark 4 was scrapped not the role.
Our esteemed CAS (?) said to us all at Kinloss days after the scrapping announcement
"it's just the aircraft that has been scrapped, the role is extant
Our esteemed CAS (?) said to us all at Kinloss days after the scrapping announcement
"it's just the aircraft that has been scrapped, the role is extant
CAS does not have the final vote...politicians have that. And Fox is on parlimentary record as saying that the loss of the MPA capability could be mitigated (his words) by frigates, helicopters and C130. Which, as the MPA and RN community know is complete and total bull crap.
Bull crap that has now been exposed by the wider defence community.
PS
I am light blue biased and I do have an RAF chip on my shoulder...but I still know that an LRMPA should be operated by the RN.
Last edited by The Old Fat One; 21st Nov 2012 at 10:04.
This is another example of the reality of the current financial situation, and what we can expect in the years to come:
BBC News - UK public sector borrowing worse than expected in October
Note the comments at the end about longer term prospects....
With little or no MPs these days with military experience, for most, including famously Gordon Brown when he was chancellor/Prime Minister, their perception (right or wrong, it doesn't alter the fact that this is how they see things) is that the MOD simply represents a large budget that produces little in the way of tangible results.
You can argue about such things as protecting SLOCs, etc (and I don't disagree with you) till the cows come home, but the people that make the decisions are only interested in Health, Education, unemployment, Euro crisis, etc.....
That's why you won't be getting an MPA in 2015, no matter how logical your argument. It's time to wake up and recognize the reality of the world you are living in...
BBC News - UK public sector borrowing worse than expected in October
Note the comments at the end about longer term prospects....
With little or no MPs these days with military experience, for most, including famously Gordon Brown when he was chancellor/Prime Minister, their perception (right or wrong, it doesn't alter the fact that this is how they see things) is that the MOD simply represents a large budget that produces little in the way of tangible results.
You can argue about such things as protecting SLOCs, etc (and I don't disagree with you) till the cows come home, but the people that make the decisions are only interested in Health, Education, unemployment, Euro crisis, etc.....
That's why you won't be getting an MPA in 2015, no matter how logical your argument. It's time to wake up and recognize the reality of the world you are living in...
Last edited by Biggus; 21st Nov 2012 at 10:09.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
A point about light blue owning the LRMPA which I espoused was the RAF had a larger gene pool of aircrew from which to select and train martime crews.
To some extent that remains true of pilots and to a lesser extent, now they aren't being trained, AEOps. With the rapid shrinkage of the front line and a reduction (?) in the number of pilots, that gene pool is shrinking rapidly.
If dark blue gained the MPA as well as trying to build up the FAA aircrew cadre, then they may well be able to sustain a larger pool of aircrew. One route might be similar to the AWAC route where seamen man positions on a couple of tours before reverting to their shipborne role.
To some extent that remains true of pilots and to a lesser extent, now they aren't being trained, AEOps. With the rapid shrinkage of the front line and a reduction (?) in the number of pilots, that gene pool is shrinking rapidly.
If dark blue gained the MPA as well as trying to build up the FAA aircrew cadre, then they may well be able to sustain a larger pool of aircrew. One route might be similar to the AWAC route where seamen man positions on a couple of tours before reverting to their shipborne role.
Timing
Surely no one really thinks that we are actually going to GET an MPA in 2015.
The thread says 'announced' in 2015, this might be likely but it will still take several more years before anything actually hits squadron service.
The thread says 'announced' in 2015, this might be likely but it will still take several more years before anything actually hits squadron service.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: South of Watford
Posts: 896
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps if we as a country were ever in a position to afford LRMPA again and if RN wanted the capability then a mixed RN/RAF force might be the answer. It sort of worked with the Harrier. It could work with the Tac team sourced from RN Helo/Shipbourn ASW/ASUW operators and the drivers(airframes) and ground support from the RAF. However, there are a lot of ifs there and I suspect in the next 5-10 years the RN will learn how to operate without UK LRMPA. Perhaps other European/NATO partners will continue successfully to plug the gap. I do, however, think regardless of the arguments set down here and elsewhere that the UK will never again have a LRMPA force remotely similar to that which we had with Nimrod.
Perhaps as importantly at senior levels of the RAF there are no longer Officers from a maritime background who will put a strong argument forward for this role. The RAF has retreated into its core business of air defence and ground attack.
Perhaps as importantly at senior levels of the RAF there are no longer Officers from a maritime background who will put a strong argument forward for this role. The RAF has retreated into its core business of air defence and ground attack.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: The US of A, and sometimes Bonnie Scotland
Posts: 549
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah. Excellent! More ill-informed tosh about what an MMA, yes folks, a Multi Mission Aircraft would actually do. An MMA would not only serve as an MPA, but a host of other duties. The claptrap about light or dark blue is, frankly, a dead debate.
Please move on.
Please move on.
Last edited by betty swallox; 21st Nov 2012 at 11:59.
Nice one 'Betty' you are right (again) too many people just see MPA as a sub basher.
An unfortunate but true fact is that the senior RAF knobs never really understood what we all did with our MPA's (or cared much).
True dit:
On having been briefed on a recent and (relevant) 'Form Purple' at HQ STC (as was) the boss of the day (who clearly hadn't understood and couldn't be seen to say so) simply said "No more of these."
It is going to be a long careful and gradual rebuilding of capability. It may even take a generation before we get anywhere near what we lost in 2010.
An unfortunate but true fact is that the senior RAF knobs never really understood what we all did with our MPA's (or cared much).
True dit:
On having been briefed on a recent and (relevant) 'Form Purple' at HQ STC (as was) the boss of the day (who clearly hadn't understood and couldn't be seen to say so) simply said "No more of these."
It is going to be a long careful and gradual rebuilding of capability. It may even take a generation before we get anywhere near what we lost in 2010.