Was this really the only way of dealing with this...?
A US Marine I know whilst serving in the UK was victim of another colleague who (trying to work his ticket home) brought a hand grenade round to said Marine corporals married quarter. Sometime after the collague had left, with the advice to 'hand it in' the marine found the HG down the side of his MOD issue settee.
Torn between shopping his buddy, and fearful of taking it back himself, he did what every INsane person would have done. He detonated it off a cliff near Newquay.
Missing grenade was picked up during and audit, and with the Captain breathing fire the original culprit coughed to having taken it. Then told them it was at Cpl xxxxxxxs house. Of course it could no longer be proven that it had been detonated and the Cpls wife and sister who were present were brought onto base for interview.
Original culprit - returned to USA, Cpl busted to PFC. And thats it sorted.
Torn between shopping his buddy, and fearful of taking it back himself, he did what every INsane person would have done. He detonated it off a cliff near Newquay.
Missing grenade was picked up during and audit, and with the Captain breathing fire the original culprit coughed to having taken it. Then told them it was at Cpl xxxxxxxs house. Of course it could no longer be proven that it had been detonated and the Cpls wife and sister who were present were brought onto base for interview.
Original culprit - returned to USA, Cpl busted to PFC. And thats it sorted.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Hants
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
More than meets the eye
Whilst only a heartless so and so would be without sympathy for the Sgt's position, there are a number of things that don't stack up here.
At a Court Martial the accused is entitled to free legal reprsentatioin by a trained service barrister - he chose a civilian and he chose to fund it: he also accepted advice to plead guilty and should have appreciated that a deterrent custodial sentence was almost inevitale. Whatever one thinks about the Law, what Nightingale fought for was to uphold it. There ought to be one law for Scrotes and another for heroes, but it doesn't work like that. In order to catch the scrotes, those without criminal intent are caught in the net too. If you want to blame somebody, blame his mates, who may have known that he had the weapon and ammunition [NB including AP rounds] and did nothing to help. NB the MPs didn't plead guilty.
The references in the Defence to the other case (that of his flatmate - also for posession of weaponsand ammunition) suggst that there may have been other charges in relation to possible connection with these offences that were dropped. Was he, perhaps, the armouer and having covered for others couldn't dispose of the ammunition properly without landing himself in the stuck? The point is that ony the learned judge has the full picture of this, and speculation here is unhelpful.
What this goes to show is a rather cavalier attitude towards firearms by this particular organisation; I am not sure what that says about their attitude towards other rules and regulations (especially about the safety of others). Pilots, Officers of the watch, Nuclear Engineers, Air Engineers, Air Traffic Controllers, (come to think of it Chefs and Drivers) all follow rules.
One can only hope that he can appeal against the severity of the sentece - and it may well be that he should have been invalided out of the Service following his brain injury and that his unreliable memory may have been the cause of flawed choices in his own defence. If his appeal is successful then the deterrent effect of his sntence for a serious offence stands but his suffering is cut short. I suspect that should be the way to go.
At a Court Martial the accused is entitled to free legal reprsentatioin by a trained service barrister - he chose a civilian and he chose to fund it: he also accepted advice to plead guilty and should have appreciated that a deterrent custodial sentence was almost inevitale. Whatever one thinks about the Law, what Nightingale fought for was to uphold it. There ought to be one law for Scrotes and another for heroes, but it doesn't work like that. In order to catch the scrotes, those without criminal intent are caught in the net too. If you want to blame somebody, blame his mates, who may have known that he had the weapon and ammunition [NB including AP rounds] and did nothing to help. NB the MPs didn't plead guilty.
The references in the Defence to the other case (that of his flatmate - also for posession of weaponsand ammunition) suggst that there may have been other charges in relation to possible connection with these offences that were dropped. Was he, perhaps, the armouer and having covered for others couldn't dispose of the ammunition properly without landing himself in the stuck? The point is that ony the learned judge has the full picture of this, and speculation here is unhelpful.
What this goes to show is a rather cavalier attitude towards firearms by this particular organisation; I am not sure what that says about their attitude towards other rules and regulations (especially about the safety of others). Pilots, Officers of the watch, Nuclear Engineers, Air Engineers, Air Traffic Controllers, (come to think of it Chefs and Drivers) all follow rules.
One can only hope that he can appeal against the severity of the sentece - and it may well be that he should have been invalided out of the Service following his brain injury and that his unreliable memory may have been the cause of flawed choices in his own defence. If his appeal is successful then the deterrent effect of his sntence for a serious offence stands but his suffering is cut short. I suspect that should be the way to go.
Good post, Fawkes.
Everyone (or almost everyone) has considerable sympathy for Sgt Nightingale, as do I.
Many of us, including myself who was far from SF, have experienced the mismatch between the weaponry which were a constant part of our lives while deployed, and the situation once returned home.
I've briefly had a wagon full of captured weapons, and am still sad that I couldn't even take them back to the regimental museum, but that's the way it goes. I've been presented with a weapon too, but I knew I couldn't keep it.
Presumably RAF types don't routinely take their bombed-up Tonkas back to the MQ.
My main feeling on reading the transcript was "There but for the grace of God".
Like many others I wish Sgt Nightingale the very best for an appeal against sentence, and for his future career. On what I have seen so far, I honestly don't really see it as a betrayal of heroes.
Everyone (or almost everyone) has considerable sympathy for Sgt Nightingale, as do I.
Many of us, including myself who was far from SF, have experienced the mismatch between the weaponry which were a constant part of our lives while deployed, and the situation once returned home.
I've briefly had a wagon full of captured weapons, and am still sad that I couldn't even take them back to the regimental museum, but that's the way it goes. I've been presented with a weapon too, but I knew I couldn't keep it.
Presumably RAF types don't routinely take their bombed-up Tonkas back to the MQ.
My main feeling on reading the transcript was "There but for the grace of God".
Like many others I wish Sgt Nightingale the very best for an appeal against sentence, and for his future career. On what I have seen so far, I honestly don't really see it as a betrayal of heroes.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,094
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At a Court Martial the accused is entitled to free legal reprsentatioin by a
trained service barrister - he chose a civilian and he chose to fund it:
This linkcertainly suggests he could have had free legal representation:
Ministry of Defence | About Defence | What we do | Legal | Armed Forces Criminal Legal Aid Authority (AFCLAA)
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: UK
Age: 42
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
He turned down legal Aid
Sergeant Danny Nightingale: the making of an SAS hero - Telegraph
Jailed SAS war hero to be reunited with wife in prison visit - Telegraph
Wife of jailed SAS hero appeals to Prime Minister for help - Telegraph
SAS Commander pays tribute to jailed hero - Telegraph
. The telegraph seems to be updating and adding to this story almost hourly.
Jailed SAS war hero to be reunited with wife in prison visit - Telegraph
Wife of jailed SAS hero appeals to Prime Minister for help - Telegraph
SAS Commander pays tribute to jailed hero - Telegraph
. The telegraph seems to be updating and adding to this story almost hourly.
Last edited by AvionicToad; 18th Nov 2012 at 08:18.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: UK
Age: 42
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cunning Artificer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A friend of mine (now deceased) was a hostage during the Brunei rebellion. After being released by the Gurkhas, like many expats working on the oilfield, he armed himself with a .38 automatic pistol. Upon returning home the pistol ended up in a box in his attic. He bought and ran a general store and sub-post office and one day he sacked an assistant who he caught stealing cigarettes. She reported him to the police for some offence or other and when they exercised the search warrant they found the long forgotten pistol. He was charged for possession of an unlicensed firearm and upon conviction he was fined £200. Thats a a lot of money in 1989 but long way from a stiff term of imprisonment and the end of a career.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
times have changed - if you are going to hide a gun and ammo then you should check on the potential consequences
I find it strange that anyone would WANT a gun around the place - you don't find people smuggling a Lightning into their garage on completeion of service do you??
I find it strange that anyone would WANT a gun around the place - you don't find people smuggling a Lightning into their garage on completeion of service do you??
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Two questions to everyone.
IF the container had been left at the Hereford base, would this have been
classed the same offense as he was charged withn or as it was on defense property, a different charge ?
Seems to be a fair bit in the media, letters etc. Is this generating a groundswell
of support in the general public or will it die if nothing is done soon ?
.
IF the container had been left at the Hereford base, would this have been
classed the same offense as he was charged withn or as it was on defense property, a different charge ?
Seems to be a fair bit in the media, letters etc. Is this generating a groundswell
of support in the general public or will it die if nothing is done soon ?
.
Last edited by 500N; 18th Nov 2012 at 20:46.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Banished (twice) to the pointless forest
Posts: 1,558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
500, read the transcript of the CM. The Ammo is not from Afghanistan, he collected that later.
The offence was committed out there when he failed to hand the gun in the day he "was given" it.
His alleged memory loss is not relevant to any of this. He deserves to be punished for keeping an unlawful weapon on camp, whatever camp that is.
When you take all of his stories into account, and add to it the fact that he plead guilty (which avoids giving evidence and a cross examination) you should be able to see why the court thought a custodial disposal was appropriate.
The groundswell of public opinion is less informed than the court. I suspect that you will find that when you explain the Ammo and the timeframe to Joe Public, the support dies down a bit.
The offence was committed out there when he failed to hand the gun in the day he "was given" it.
His alleged memory loss is not relevant to any of this. He deserves to be punished for keeping an unlawful weapon on camp, whatever camp that is.
When you take all of his stories into account, and add to it the fact that he plead guilty (which avoids giving evidence and a cross examination) you should be able to see why the court thought a custodial disposal was appropriate.
The groundswell of public opinion is less informed than the court. I suspect that you will find that when you explain the Ammo and the timeframe to Joe Public, the support dies down a bit.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airpolice
Thank you - I may have missed if the information you presented
was posted previously but your summary sums it up perfectly
and as I thought re handing in the weapon.
Thank you - I may have missed if the information you presented
was posted previously but your summary sums it up perfectly
and as I thought re handing in the weapon.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 457
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
airpolice
Initially that was also my view. But having read and re-read the CM transcript, I form the view that the finding is, whilst just in strict interpretation of the law (and some may say that is all that matters), it is callous and almost dismissive of the medical evidence. I know that the JA gave some regard to the latter, but in comparison to the weight given to the medical circumstances relating to the recent case involving a MP, his ruling could be regarded as atomic. At first I was emotive over the issue, but felt inclined to the rule of law: as the days pass, I'm increasingly convinced otherwise. The man should be released, admonished, and allowed to continue to serve. That said, his case should be presented as a reminder to all of its unlawfulness. His circumstances are somewhat unique.
Initially that was also my view. But having read and re-read the CM transcript, I form the view that the finding is, whilst just in strict interpretation of the law (and some may say that is all that matters), it is callous and almost dismissive of the medical evidence. I know that the JA gave some regard to the latter, but in comparison to the weight given to the medical circumstances relating to the recent case involving a MP, his ruling could be regarded as atomic. At first I was emotive over the issue, but felt inclined to the rule of law: as the days pass, I'm increasingly convinced otherwise. The man should be released, admonished, and allowed to continue to serve. That said, his case should be presented as a reminder to all of its unlawfulness. His circumstances are somewhat unique.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,094
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Blacksheep said:
and the end of a career.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South of England
Age: 74
Posts: 627
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
Daily Telegraph - 22 Nov 12
“Jailed SAS soldier could be freed by Christmas as case is fast tracked”.
Well, good for him, and deep respect to his wife, Sally; she managed to get the prime minister on side.
However what effect will it have on our, highly valued and “absolute” gun laws if a senior politician can, by “lending his weight to the case”, cause the most senior judge in the country to effectively bypass the normal system, to which the rest of us are subject?
How often does the Lord Chief Justice preside on a case involving a detainee in MCTC?
Depending on the outcome of the full hearing this could in some way restore the possibly dented morale of the Special Forces or it could make a serious dent in the effectiveness of our gun laws.
Whatever the outcome, is anyone going to take the case of ex-soldier Paul Clarke to the prime minister?
Rgds SOS
Well, good for him, and deep respect to his wife, Sally; she managed to get the prime minister on side.
However what effect will it have on our, highly valued and “absolute” gun laws if a senior politician can, by “lending his weight to the case”, cause the most senior judge in the country to effectively bypass the normal system, to which the rest of us are subject?
How often does the Lord Chief Justice preside on a case involving a detainee in MCTC?
Depending on the outcome of the full hearing this could in some way restore the possibly dented morale of the Special Forces or it could make a serious dent in the effectiveness of our gun laws.
Whatever the outcome, is anyone going to take the case of ex-soldier Paul Clarke to the prime minister?
Rgds SOS
Last edited by SOSL; 22nd Nov 2012 at 16:46.
My "B0-LL-0X" caption is still lit on this one...
If you planned to decommission the weapon then why keep several hundred rounds of ammunition - some of which could be fired in the Glock and some of which was that frangible stuff that really makes a nasty wound? Furthermore, there was Armour Piercing (AP) rounds found at his home as well. AP rounds are particulaly effective against body armour and if that fell into the wrong hands it could render Police body armour ineffective.
Prohibited items found at Sgt Nightingale's address
1x Glock 9mm pistol
122 x 9mm live rounds of ammunition
50 x 9mm frangible rounds of ammunition
40 x 7.62mm live rounds of ammunition
50 x 338 armour piercing live rounds of ammunition
2 x .308 live rounds of ammunition
74 x 5.56mm live rounds of ammunition
Hardly a "few trinkets and souvenirs" is it?
Nope, the guy IMHO got what he deserved - you just don't bring guns and ammo home from work. I just hope that the Prime Minister hasn't just linked himself to a swell of public outcry without knowing the full facts...
LJ
Sgt Nightingale was given the pistol, a Glock 9mm, as a gift by Iraqi soldiers he helped train in 2009. It was shipped back to the UK by military authorities when he left the country that year. His family say that a brain injury he subsequently suffered on a charity run in Brazil affected his memory, contributing to his failure to have the weapon decommissioned, as he had planned. The weapon and the ammunition were found during a search of his Service accommodation because of a complaint that had been made about another SAS soldier.
Prohibited items found at Sgt Nightingale's address
1x Glock 9mm pistol
122 x 9mm live rounds of ammunition
50 x 9mm frangible rounds of ammunition
40 x 7.62mm live rounds of ammunition
50 x 338 armour piercing live rounds of ammunition
2 x .308 live rounds of ammunition
74 x 5.56mm live rounds of ammunition
Hardly a "few trinkets and souvenirs" is it?
Nope, the guy IMHO got what he deserved - you just don't bring guns and ammo home from work. I just hope that the Prime Minister hasn't just linked himself to a swell of public outcry without knowing the full facts...
LJ
Nothing wrong with fast tracking an appeal to get it to court. However, once it's there, it's up to the judicial system to decide the outcome - not politicians, not the public, not anyone else with a passing acquaintance of the facts.
It will be interesting to see the outcome.
It will be interesting to see the outcome.
Dear oh dear. If the info above about the ammunition is legit then he should consider himself damn lucky to have only got 18 months in the glasshouse, where one presumes that he would have got a degree of sympathy from the staff. By appealing he runs the risk of getting longer in a civilian prison, surely?
I also did 17 years, and actually have a Firearms Certificate, but if plod, for whatever reason, searched my house and found weapons and/or ammunition that were not on the licence, no matter why I had them or whether I could remember having them or not, I could expect to go to prison for a long time.
Clearly, in terms of op experience or even 'service to my country' I am not in the same league as Sgt Nightingale, but the law remains the same for all. Unlawful possession of a firearm is a strict liability offence, to which there is virtually no defence. The onus is on the accused to prove that it is not theirs and they could not reasonably have known about it. The CM/JA did not accept that his memory loss was sufficient mitigation for retaining possession of the firearm in his private accommodation:
"We consider that during this move you would have clearly recalled both the pistol and ammunition but no doubt placed it very low on your list of things to sort out due to being so busy." Being low on ones priority list is, in this case, no defence at all.
Whether this should even have made it to a CM is a highly debatable issue. but the powers that be decided that it should, so, given that "...parliament has decreed that in relation to Charge 1, that a minimum period of 5 years imprisonment is mandatory unless there are exceptional circumstances...", I think he was dealt with reasonably fairly, especially as he was not even reduced in rank, let alone dismissed the service.
Nonetheless, I hope his appeal against his sentence is successful and this experienced and brave soldier can resume his career quickly.
Clearly, in terms of op experience or even 'service to my country' I am not in the same league as Sgt Nightingale, but the law remains the same for all. Unlawful possession of a firearm is a strict liability offence, to which there is virtually no defence. The onus is on the accused to prove that it is not theirs and they could not reasonably have known about it. The CM/JA did not accept that his memory loss was sufficient mitigation for retaining possession of the firearm in his private accommodation:
"We consider that during this move you would have clearly recalled both the pistol and ammunition but no doubt placed it very low on your list of things to sort out due to being so busy." Being low on ones priority list is, in this case, no defence at all.
Whether this should even have made it to a CM is a highly debatable issue. but the powers that be decided that it should, so, given that "...parliament has decreed that in relation to Charge 1, that a minimum period of 5 years imprisonment is mandatory unless there are exceptional circumstances...", I think he was dealt with reasonably fairly, especially as he was not even reduced in rank, let alone dismissed the service.
Nonetheless, I hope his appeal against his sentence is successful and this experienced and brave soldier can resume his career quickly.
Last edited by PlasticCabDriver; 22nd Nov 2012 at 23:08.