Voyager Sponsored Reserves Awarded "Wings"
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Well done to them.
It's a shame the RAF/CAA can't see fit to work the same in reverse with the award, partial or otherwise, of an ATPL...but that's another thread entirely
It's a shame the RAF/CAA can't see fit to work the same in reverse with the award, partial or otherwise, of an ATPL...but that's another thread entirely
Last edited by Uncle Ginsters; 30th Sep 2012 at 15:54.
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My apologies to the gentlemen for engaging laptop before now rapidly ageing brain.
However, although many years now removed from active tanker ops I would argue that two AAR sorties a year for currency is barely sufficient for the Ace Operators, of whjch there are few,(how easy it was for ij101 to pick one out).
I appreciate,as told by an AOC that the RAF can no longer afford the Rolls Royce solution to training and Voyager will have magic machines for everything but it all comes down to the operator in the end and their understanding and reaction to the situatioin which can only come from training.
However, although many years now removed from active tanker ops I would argue that two AAR sorties a year for currency is barely sufficient for the Ace Operators, of whjch there are few,(how easy it was for ij101 to pick one out).
I appreciate,as told by an AOC that the RAF can no longer afford the Rolls Royce solution to training and Voyager will have magic machines for everything but it all comes down to the operator in the end and their understanding and reaction to the situatioin which can only come from training.
Last edited by Art Field; 30th Sep 2012 at 16:26.
I get why this has been done, the guys are going to (eventually) operate the same aircraft with military selected and trained crew; there shouldn't be a 'them and us' atmosphere on the Voyager fleet and they have to be fully integrated, so this will be a thing of the future construct of Mil/Civ partnerships.
I'm old-school on this one; a bit of luck, a lot of hard work, grit and determination got me my coveted wings, It's a select 'club,' that those of us lucky enough to wear the brevet, should look to guard with pride. Maybe they had a go at OASC and didn't make it, maybe they just chose civilian aviation instead. It's not a slight on their ability or commitment to their reserve status, but I don't think they should wear 'our' wings...
I look forward to hearing their opinions in the bar over a beer....
I'm old-school on this one; a bit of luck, a lot of hard work, grit and determination got me my coveted wings, It's a select 'club,' that those of us lucky enough to wear the brevet, should look to guard with pride. Maybe they had a go at OASC and didn't make it, maybe they just chose civilian aviation instead. It's not a slight on their ability or commitment to their reserve status, but I don't think they should wear 'our' wings...
I look forward to hearing their opinions in the bar over a beer....
Heuymeister,
I do NOT know what selection and training process these Sponsored Reservists went through. I understand that OASC and OACTU were involved in looking at the process, but I do not know what came of this.
However I DO know that those going into the first Sponsored Reserve unit in MoD (that was converted from an existing RAFVR unit,) have to undergo the full OASC selection and then pass the Specialist Entry Re-Entry course at OACTU at RAFC Cranwell. The RAF have failed some who were not up to the mark, and re-coursed others who eventually passed, so in some cases getting a Commission as a RAFR (SR) is not just given away with the Corn Flakes.
I do NOT know what selection and training process these Sponsored Reservists went through. I understand that OASC and OACTU were involved in looking at the process, but I do not know what came of this.
However I DO know that those going into the first Sponsored Reserve unit in MoD (that was converted from an existing RAFVR unit,) have to undergo the full OASC selection and then pass the Specialist Entry Re-Entry course at OACTU at RAFC Cranwell. The RAF have failed some who were not up to the mark, and re-coursed others who eventually passed, so in some cases getting a Commission as a RAFR (SR) is not just given away with the Corn Flakes.
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Snoopy is correct, the Sponsored Reservists have to go through the same 15 day basic recruit course at RAF Halton as the other reservists do, in addition to passing te 4 day OASC at Cranwell. Finally, they do a 20 week (I think) course at Cranwell, which is the same course as the commissioned reservist officers do.
People have failed selection, and will continue to do so if they do not meet the standard, both at Cranwell and indeed at Halton
People have failed selection, and will continue to do so if they do not meet the standard, both at Cranwell and indeed at Halton
Hueymeister, I'm fully with you on this.
AirTanker Services are only doing what the MoD intended with the 'PFI' scheme, so no criticism of ATrS can really be justified.
But it's the whole ridiculous notion of the PFI scheme which is just fundamentally wrong. No other air force has gone down this flawed route, for very good reasons. The Australians observed the civil serpents at the Brizzle Waterworks faffing about with the scheme, went home and announced that it was an utter crock - 'PFI' standing for 'Poms are F*****g Idiots' in the antipodean vernacular!
FTRS, 'Sponsored Reservist' mercenaries and other patch-over-the-cracks attempts to save money really stick in the craw when capable young folk have been told they're surplus to requirements after completing their flying training.....
Then there's the complete and utter bolleaux of 'MFTS'.... Just what the hell is happening to a once proud air force?
AirTanker Services are only doing what the MoD intended with the 'PFI' scheme, so no criticism of ATrS can really be justified.
But it's the whole ridiculous notion of the PFI scheme which is just fundamentally wrong. No other air force has gone down this flawed route, for very good reasons. The Australians observed the civil serpents at the Brizzle Waterworks faffing about with the scheme, went home and announced that it was an utter crock - 'PFI' standing for 'Poms are F*****g Idiots' in the antipodean vernacular!
FTRS, 'Sponsored Reservist' mercenaries and other patch-over-the-cracks attempts to save money really stick in the craw when capable young folk have been told they're surplus to requirements after completing their flying training.....
Then there's the complete and utter bolleaux of 'MFTS'.... Just what the hell is happening to a once proud air force?
Why not bring back the Air Transport Auxiliary and issue their wings to these chaps who have gained a, meaningful, level of the relevant experience elsewhere.
I don't remember such a fuss when 'their airships' dished out FC and AT brevets to individuals who had not done aircrew selection or the NCO Aircrew initial training.
I don't remember such a fuss when 'their airships' dished out FC and AT brevets to individuals who had not done aircrew selection or the NCO Aircrew initial training.
I don't remember such a fuss when 'their airships' dished out FC and AT brevets to individuals who had not done aircrew selection or the NCO Aircrew initial training.
Snoops and Wino,
I Get it, I really do; we're having to put some Airbus experience into Air Tanker. I'm not in any way being disparaging of those individuals, nor anyone who's been 'selected' for SR status. I just think we're 'cheapening' our standards in our way of doing business.
Moreover, I really feel for the 170 young guys and gals we recently let go. Not that can compare their experience against that of the Air Tanker SR's..just my opinion, that's all.
I Get it, I really do; we're having to put some Airbus experience into Air Tanker. I'm not in any way being disparaging of those individuals, nor anyone who's been 'selected' for SR status. I just think we're 'cheapening' our standards in our way of doing business.
Moreover, I really feel for the 170 young guys and gals we recently let go. Not that can compare their experience against that of the Air Tanker SR's..just my opinion, that's all.
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Huey,
I dont disagree with you, was merely confirming the process that the Sponsored Reservists have to go through in order to get their brevets and that I would assert they are not 'given away' as some seem to think.
Whether or not the PFI route is the correct route to go down, of course, is an entirely different conversation as to whether or not brevets are earned, and a conversation which I would imagine we will be singing from similar hymn sheets.
I dont disagree with you, was merely confirming the process that the Sponsored Reservists have to go through in order to get their brevets and that I would assert they are not 'given away' as some seem to think.
Whether or not the PFI route is the correct route to go down, of course, is an entirely different conversation as to whether or not brevets are earned, and a conversation which I would imagine we will be singing from similar hymn sheets.
Champagne anyone...?
I understand the crews will be flying to CAP371/EASA FTLs when operating in their civvy uniforms, doing the routine strat stuff. AAR/trail etc stuff will generally be operated by the RAF crews although the ATr crews will work to GASOs etc when working as SRs.
The majority of tasking and rostering etc will also all be managed and run on a day to day basis by an ATr Ops cell rather than DSCOM (or whoever it is these days). This means it will probably work.
The majority of tasking and rostering etc will also all be managed and run on a day to day basis by an ATr Ops cell rather than DSCOM (or whoever it is these days). This means it will probably work.
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I wonder how crewing will be decided, all RO and all AF. If one goes last minute sick so you wind up mixed crew whose rules do you work to, who decides crewiung priorities. It appears that ATr ops will run the show so there could be two masters for the aircrew to have to work for.
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Pay Rates.
I can't imagine that these highly qualified individuals would work for the lowly wages of a Flt Lt. What pay scale are they on, and if it is different from their regular serving off siders won't that create some division?
It's going to have to be considerably more. I can't believe they took a pay drop for the pleasure of wearing RAF uniform and being the SDO. I did ask when they were advertising (out of interest - I wasn't really thinking of applyng) and couldn't get an answer. But if they wanted the experience to get the operation under way, they would have to at least match the pay of an A330 TIRE in the airlines, which in the UK won't be less than 100K. They won't be on RAF pay - that's for sure. An 8 year Flt Lt on the top rate flying pay earns the same as a year one A330 F/O in my company.
Indeed, Dan. The thorny question of the PFI mercenaries' pay scales was an early point raised when the whole idea was first mooted....
A Virgin 747 captain said at the time (and this was over 10 years ago), that he'd need rather more than £100K to be persuaded to flog up and down to the South Atlantic driving a grey airliner as a 'sponsored reservist' mercenary.
A Virgin 747 captain said at the time (and this was over 10 years ago), that he'd need rather more than £100K to be persuaded to flog up and down to the South Atlantic driving a grey airliner as a 'sponsored reservist' mercenary.
Champagne anyone...?
I seem to recall that the pay wasn't too bad. I think FO started out at around about top Flt Lt money. In my short time in Civvy aviation I've come across plenty of people who've taken pay cuts to do a job they fancy. I currently regularly work with a guy who gave up foreign contracting on big money to take up a part time job just so he could live in a particular area of the country. It's not all about the money.
I have no idea about the background of any of these guys but what's not to say they haven't come from from Far or Mid East contracts, with bank accounts awash with money and now fancy flying with the RAF, something they perhaps missed out on earlier in life (caveat - I have no actual idea)? Or they're living in Oxon and are sick of driving to MAN or LGW?
I have no idea about the background of any of these guys but what's not to say they haven't come from from Far or Mid East contracts, with bank accounts awash with money and now fancy flying with the RAF, something they perhaps missed out on earlier in life (caveat - I have no actual idea)? Or they're living in Oxon and are sick of driving to MAN or LGW?
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The guys are paid on civilian wages, but this is paid by the civilian company (AirTanker) and not directly by the RAF, who pay a contract for service provision for the whole package.
Again, whether you agree with this process or not is a different story...!
Again, whether you agree with this process or not is a different story...!
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Wee
We do have a fitness test yes: the airtanker reserves are 'special members', or so I am told, so not sure what exactly have they have to do to 'pass' their reserves course. A couple of ex RAF tanker mates (great operators)'are now reserves and they according to a reliable source, get very well paid. I haven't heard any bitching about comparative pay from their military colleagues.
DSCOM still task, timings are normally driven by the customer or airfield limitations/slots. The airtanker SQN will be working their own crew duty limits which aren't 2GASOs (at least from the paperwork I've seen which was sent to DSCOM as guide lines).
The RAF still look forward to using it for AAR, although the USAF are being scoped to 'mind the capability gap'.
All rumour of course.
We do have a fitness test yes: the airtanker reserves are 'special members', or so I am told, so not sure what exactly have they have to do to 'pass' their reserves course. A couple of ex RAF tanker mates (great operators)'are now reserves and they according to a reliable source, get very well paid. I haven't heard any bitching about comparative pay from their military colleagues.
DSCOM still task, timings are normally driven by the customer or airfield limitations/slots. The airtanker SQN will be working their own crew duty limits which aren't 2GASOs (at least from the paperwork I've seen which was sent to DSCOM as guide lines).
The RAF still look forward to using it for AAR, although the USAF are being scoped to 'mind the capability gap'.
All rumour of course.