British Troops Gunned Down by US Army Apache NEARLY 3 YEARS AGO!!

[MrBernoulli]

A drone fitted with a camera and two US Apaches flew to the patrol base ....

Something wrong with the grammar there? I have this image in my mind of a drone (UAV ..... ffs ) flying along with 2 Apaches dangling from the hardpoints and a camera attached elsewhere .......

[Grenville Fortescue]

Is it not possible to develop some form of biometric personnel recognition system activated perhaps by the aircraft's radar (or other device) which would return a 'non-hostile' "ping" and prevent such mistakes?

[SASless]

For the record.....

I am well aware of the Guardian's political bias.

I am aware of it being a rather large World....I have travelled, lived in, and worked in a very large part of it.

I am also aware of the various military organizations around the world having been involved with more than a few in combat operations.

I am also well aware of the all too frequent tragedy of Friendly Fire tragedies.


What I am just as aware of is the all too frequent whine of a few here that it is always the Yanks that are to blame for these things, that ignore your own versions of Blue on Blue, and that cannot accept the fact you play a very small role in the provision of Air To Ground attack when compared to the American forces just by mere presence and numbers of aircraft and units available for the tasking.

Too many of you take the difference in numbers of these Friendly Fire events to suggest you are somehow either far superior in your abilities or immune from making mistakes for whatever reason as compared to American forces.

The Truth of the matter is there have always been Friendly Fire events and always shall be....War is not a perfect science or art....no matter the technology that exists.

The Human link is the weak one in that chain....fingers punch in the wrong coordinates, during stressful times people forget how a GPS reconfigures itself after changing batteries, descriptions of targets gets garbled while being relayed, pilots get confused as to what they are looking for, looking at, and are aiming at.....but that is not a problem unique to Americans....every military force has to deal with that.

This may be the RAF Forum here at pprune.....but folks it gets tiresome listening to you vocal minority that always come on with the same repetitive and tiresome whine about the Spams.

We don't beat you guys up.....so why do you feel compelled to do it to us. And....no it isn't fecking banter you throw out....don't run that horse by me on this. Some of you are just plain arrogant....you are in the minority....and you are dead wrong.

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by Grenville Fortescue

Is it not possible to develop some form of biometric personnel recognition system activated perhaps by the aircraft's radar (or other device) which would return a 'non-hostile' "ping" and prevent such mistakes?

The short answer may well be yes. But a slightly longer answer is money.

While you can't place too high a price on human life and blue on blue does occur it does not occur that often. There are many other calls on essential and life-saving pieces of kit - fixing the Nimrod was one. An IFF that worked was another. Providing enough ballistic armour another.

As I would agree with SASLess, the Americans are in the frame more often than most as they provide the bulk of the equipment in recent conflicts thus they are more likely to be involved.

[BEagle]

The term 'Trigger Happy Yanks' goes back to World War II. (For Spams, that's the one which started in 1939.)

Spitfires escorting B-17 formations had to stay well clear of the formations as it was well-known that the USAAF gunners would blast away at anything they saw....

It wasn't just an RAF expression, here's a clip from a Spokane newspaper of 1946:

During OP WARDEN, not long after a pair of F-15s had successfully shot down two of their own UH-60 Blackhawks, I was astonished to learn that one of the Mission Directors had said that the role of the UK recce assets was "To stir things up so we can bomb something". Some of the ANG mob were like little kids who had a burning desire to break things - the fact that air policing was working well without a shot being fired was seemingly lost on them...

However, when some trigger happy idiot blasted away at an RAF helicopter, the crew promptly landed, then went over and thumped the crap out of him. "Our chaps tend not to tolerate such stupidity" was allegedly the comment made by the helicopter force commander.

So SASless, it's not just that you invade more countries and occupy them with larger numbers of troops than the UK does, it is because you have a culture of "Shoot first, ask questions later" and we do not.

Have a nice day. Oo-rah...

[Pontius Navigator]

BEagle, are you referring to the '41-45 war?

I know the naval forces, whilst neutral, were involved before Dec '41.

Now one story I recall, a road convoy brief in Northern Ireland was instructed to keep it tight and not allow anyone to get into the convoy.

Paddy duly came upon the convoy and started to overtake. When he saw a car coming towards him he pulled in to the convoy whereupon the gunner in the following truck blew him off the road.

[SASless]

Beags.....any wonder the B-17's were trigger happy....being attacked by the Luftwaffe in day light. Whatever reason would a Spitfire have to get "close" to a B-17 formation to begin with....or could they not identify several hundred to a thousand B-17's for what they were?

Granted all but a few of the encounters would have been over the Channel or the UK itself....as the Spit did not venture far from home due to its lack of range...so maybe you do have some grounds to complain.

Out of the thousands upon thousands of Air-Ground attacks....just how many Blue on Blue do we have Beags? We have all agreed that one is too many. Who is doing all the whining here and arguing against the majority?

Why would we not have just said...."Apaches attack friendly ground troops!"....would that not accurately describe the incident? When these events are done by American aircraft....it is American aircraft named....when it is British....mum's the word. There is too much finger pointing and name calling when a polite discussion would talk of the mere tragedy of the event and look to find ways to improve the system after a careful analysis of what actually happened. Why the name calling all the time?

I can live with the "Spam" part....as we did send a lot of it to you in our feeding of your country when you needed it...and it is not the most tasty of meat but at least it had meat in it unlike some of the beastly stuff you folks relish....Mermite is it?

Damn.....1946....Spokane, Washington....were you there for Advanced Training then Beags?

Yeah right.....one of yours thumped one of ours.....urban myths are so boring and trite....now tell us the full story will you?

If you go back to the thread where the shoot down of the two UH-60's was discussed....you will find that I was very upset over that....and called for a lynching (legal hanging after a fair trial) of the F-15 pilot that just had to get his Kills before the opportunity passed away. I was an Army Helicopter Pilot you know....and my natural loyalty fell to the good folks that were murdered by that AIR FORCE pilot. You may take it that not all of us are chuffed by the conduct of our air forces.

Now Beags....knowing how humble you are....and never one to ever suggest being British ennobles ones views or anything....you are welcome to your opinion as I know nothing under the Sun is going to change it one whit. I will admit you are steady on in that regard and can be relied upon to remind us almost daily.

[BEagle]

Whatever reason would a Spitfire have to get "close" to a B-17 formation to begin with....or could they not identify several hundred to a thousand B-17's for what they were?

Fitted with additional tanks, they were providing fighter escort as best they could before the Rolls-Royce engined Mustangs came upon the scene. When Göring heard that Mustangs were escorting B-17s over Germany, he knew that they'd lost the war.

[minigundiplomat]

SAS,

between this thread and the one regarding Libya, you have been getting very hot under the collar recently mate.

I would drop the 'whole world is against us' attitude as it is not doing you any favours. You have more friends on here than you realise, and most viewpoints are similar to your own - just couched in more genteel terms and with a little less 'hooya'.

The reason you are falling out with so many people is your defensiveness and aggressiveness - a new and rather unwelcome trait.

The overall message you put across is fine, but the spikey and gung ho nature in which you are putting it across is getting peoples backs up. There is more friendly fire going on here than outside this post chap...

There is no malice intended in this post - I normally enjoy reading your posts, but from one rotary mate to another - chill the frig out and count to 10 before posting.

Trust me buddy, we only have so many heartbeats and I get the impression you are rattling through yours at an alarming rate right now.

Stay safe.

MGD

[Grenville Fortescue]

I quite like Americans.

I surprise myself from time-to-time!

[brickhistory]

(For Spams, that's the one which started in 1939.)

Hmm, one wonders what the Czechs might think of your chronology?

[blind pue]

SASLess

If wikipedia is anything to go by I would guess that both sides have had their fair share of friendly fire. Judging by these extracts from World War II the RAF had a lot of Trigger Happy pilots as well.

'Shoot first, ask questions later' was happening before the USA decided to join.

1939
6 September - Just days after the start of the war, in what was dubbed the Battle of Barking Creek, three RAF Spitfires from 74 Squadron shot down two Hurricanes from the RAF's 56 Squadron, killing one of the pilots.

21 May - A Bristol Blenheim L9325 of No. 18 Squadron RAF was shot down by RAF Hurricane and crashed near Arras, France. Three crewmen were killed.
22 May - A Bristol Blenheim L9266 of No. 59 Squadron RAF was shot down by RAF Spitfire and crashed near Fricourt, France. Three crewmen were killed.

RAF fighter ace Wing Commander Douglas Bader was shot down in what recent research suggests was a friendly fire incident.

26 November 1941, a RAF aircraft bombed the 1st Essex Regiment during Operation Crusader, causing about 40 casualties.

20 February - British Commonwealth forces during the Burma Campaign were repeatedly bombed and strafed by RAF Blenheims during a break-out attempt by a battalion surrounded by Japanese troops in Sittaung River, Burma. More than 170 British Commonwealth lives were lost due to RAF air-strikes.

27 June- a group of RAF Vickers Wellingtons bombed the units of 4th County of London Yeomanry, British 7th Armoured Division and the British 3rd Hussars during a two-hour raid near Mersa Matruh, Egypt, killing over 359 troops and wounding 560. The aftermath of RAF raids at this time were also seen by the Germans: "...The RAF had bombed their own troops, and with tracer flying in all directions, German units fired on each other. At 0500 hours next morning 28 June, I drove up to the breakout area where we had spent such a disturbed night. There we found a number of lorries filled with the mangled corpses of New Zealanders who had been killed by the British bombs...

During the 2nd Battle of El Alamein, RAF fighters bombed British troops during a four hour raid, causing 56 casualties. The British 10th Royal Hussars were among the victims; they did not know the proper signals to call off their planes.

On the morning of 27 March 1944, two US Motor Torpedo Boats (PT-121 and PT-353) were destroyed in error by P-40 Kittyhawks of No. 78 Squadron RAAF, along with an RAAF Bristol Beaufighter of No. 30 Squadron RAAF. A second Beaufighter crew recognized the vessels as PTs and tried to stop the attack, but not before both boats exploded and sank off the coast of New Britain. Eight American sailors were killed, with 12 others wounded.

5–6 June, several RAF Avro Lancasters attempting to bomb the German artillery battery at Merville-Franceville-Plage attacked instead friendly positions, killing 186 soldiers of the British Reconnaissance Corps and devastating the town. They also mistakenly bombed Drop Zone 'V ' of the 6th Airborne Division, killing 78 and injuring 65.
6 June 1944, RAF fighters bombed and strafed the HQ entourage of 3rd Parachute Brigade (British 6th Airborne Division) near Pegasus Bridge after mistaking them for a German column. At least 15 men were killed and many others were wounded.
8 June 1944, a group of RAF Hawker Typhoons attacked the 175th Infantry Regiment, 29th Infantry Division (United States) on the Isigny Highway, France, causing 24 casualties.
On 27 July 1944, the former HMS*Sunfish was sunk by a British RAF Coastal Command aircraft in the Norwegian Sea during the beginning of its process of being transferred to the Soviet Navy. The Captain, Israel Fisanovich, supposedly had taken her out of her assigned area and was diving the sub when the aircraft came in sight instead of staying on the surface and firing signal flares as instructed. All crew, including the British liaison staff, were lost. Later investigation revealed that the RAF crew were at fault.

7 August 1944, a RAF Hawker Typhoon strafed a squad from 'F' Company/US 120th Infantry Regiment, near Hill 314, France, killing two men. Around noon on the same day, RAF Hawker Typhoon of the 2TAF was called in to assist the US 823rd Tank Destroyer Battalion in stopping an attack by the 2nd SS Panzer Division between Sourdeval and Mortain but instead fired its rockets at two US 3-inch guns near L'Abbaye Blanche, killing one man and wounding several others even after the yellow smoke (which was to identify friendlies) was put out. Two hours later, an RAF Typhoon shot up the Service Company of the 120th Infantry Regiment, US 30th Division, causing several casualties, including Major James Bynum who was killed near Mortain. The officer who replaced him was strafed by another Typhoon a few minutes later and seriously wounded. Around the same time, a Hawker Typhoon attacked the Cannon Company of 120th Infantry Regiment, US 30th Division, near Mortain, killing 15 men. An hour later, RAF Typhoons strafed 'B' Company/US 120th Infantry Regiment on Hill 285, killing a driver of a weapons carrier.
Allied heavy bombers bombed the headquarters of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division and 1st Polish Armoured Division during Operation Totalize, causing several hundred Allied
8 August 1944, near Mortain, France, RAF Hawker Typhoons attacked two Sherman tanks of 'C' Company, US 743rd Tank Battalion with rockets, killing 5 tank crewmen and wounding 10 soldiers. Later that day, two Shermans from 'A' Company, US 743rd Tank Battalion were destroyed and set ablaze by RAF Typhoons near Mortain. One tank crewman was killed and 12 others wounded.

9 August 1944, a RAF Hawker Typhoon strafed units of the British Columbia Regiment and the Algonquin Regiment, 4th Canadian Armoured Division, near Quesnay Wood during Operation Totalize, causing several casualties. Later that day, the same units were mistakenly fired upon by tanks and artillery of the 1st Polish Armoured Division, resulting in more casualties.
12 August 1944, RAF Hawker Typhoons fired rockets at Shermans of 'A' Company, US 743rd Tank Battalion, near Mortain, France, causing damage to one tank and badly injuring 2 tank crewmen.
13 August 1944, 12 British soldiers of ‘B’ Company, 4th Wiltshires, 43rd Wessex Division, were killed and 25 others wounded when they were hit by rockets and machine gun attacks by RAF Typhoons near La Villette, Calvados, France.
14 August 1944, RAF heavy bombers hit Allied troops in error during Operation Tractable causing about 490 casualties including 112 dead. The bombings also destroyed 265 Allied vehicles, 30 field guns and two tanks. British anti-aircraft guns opened fire on the RAF bombers and some may have been hit.
17 August 1944, RAF fighters attacked the soldiers of the British 7th Armoured Division, resulting in 20 casualties, including the intelligence officer of 8th Hussars who was badly injured. The colonel riding along was badly shaken when their jeep crashed off the road.
14–18 August 1944, the South Alberta Regiment of the 4th Canadian Armoured Division came under fire six times by RAF Spitfires, resulting in over 57 casualties. Many vehicles were also set on fire and the yellow smoke used for signalling friendlies was ignored by Spitfire pilots. An officer of the South Alberta demanded that he wanted his Crusader AA tanks to shoot at the Spitfires attacking his Headquarters.
On 27 August 1944, a minesweeping flotilla of Royal Navy ships came under fire. At about noon of the 27th, HMS Britomart, Salamander, Hussar and Jason came under rocket and cannon attacks by Hawker Typhoons of No. 263 Squadron RAF and No. 266 Squadron RAF. HMS Britomart and HMS Hussar took direct hits and were sunk. HMS Salamander had her stern blown off and sustained heavy damage. HMS Jason was raked by machine gun fire, killing and wounding several of her crew. Two of the accompanying trawlers were also hit. The total loss of life was 117 sailors killed and 153 wounded. The attack had continued despite the attempts by the ships to signal that they were friendly and radio requests by the commander of the aircraft for clarification of his target. In the aftermath the surviving sailors were told to keep quiet about the attack. The subsequent court of enquiry identified the fault as lying with the Navy, who had requested the attack on what they thought were enemy vessels entering or leaving Le Havre, and three RN officers were put before a court martial. The commander of the Jason and his crew were decorated for their part in rescuing their comrades. At the time reporting of the incident was suppressed with information not fully released until 1994.
12 September 1944, a group of RAF Hawker Typhoons destroyed two Sherman tanks of the Governor General's Foot Guards, 4th Canadian Armoured Division in the vicinity of Maldegem, Belgium, killing 3 men and injuring 4. One Canadian soldier from the 4th Canadian Armored Division wounded recalled this incident saying "....while so deployed the tanks were suddenly attacked, in mistake, by several Typhoon aircraft. Lt. Middleton-Hope's tank was badly hit, killing the gunner Guardsman Hughes, and the tank was set on fire. Almost immediately Sgt. Jenning's tank was similarly knocked out by Typhoon rockets. Meanwhile the Typhoons continued to press home their attack with machine guns and rockets, and, while trying to extricate the gunner, Lt. Middleton-Hope was blown off the tank. In this tragic encounter Guardsmen Baker, Barter, and Cheal were seriously wounded.

On 23 January 1945, a group of Royal Air Force fighters strafed the assault gun platoon (105mm Sherman tanks) of US 743rd Tank Battalion, near Sart-Lez-St.Vith, Belgium, killing 6 men and wounded 15.
Cap Arcona incident - Although it did not involve troops in combat, this incident has been referred to as "the worst friendly-fire incident in history"
On 3 May 1945, the three ships Cap Arcona, Thielbek, and the SS*Deutschland in Lübeck Harbour were sunk in four separate, but synchronized attacks with bombs, rockets, and cannons by the Royal Air Force, resulting in the death of over 7,000 Jewish concentration camp survivors and Russian prisoners of war, along with POWs from several other allies. The British pilots were unaware that these ships carried POW's and concentration camp survivors, although British documents were released in the 1970s that state the Swedish government had informed the RAF command of the risk prior to the attack.

[brickhistory]

blind pue,

Outstanding, if tragic, research on short notice.

While SASless is very capable of speaking for himself, as most noted, put young men (and now women) armed with things that go boom in stressful situations, and events like your research illuminated and the thread opening state, and 'blue on blue' is going to occur.

A few, however, do seem to like to assume an air (pun intended) of "our poo doesn't smell" when the facts show otherwise. Not to mention a difference of opinion of when WWII started and for whom.

And a war doesn't always have to in play. I believe there is a well-known case involving a Jaguar and and a Phantom floating about?

Not to mention the two F-15s, well now one, en route to an alert facility in Alaska some years back.

[orca]

Brickhistory, SASless,

I agree with you and would caution any poster that assumes Blue-On-Blue is a uniquely American issue.

At the risk of repeating other posts verbatim:

1. If you supply the lion's share of the hardware and explosions, simple mathematics will gift you the lion's share of the accidents.

2. During a sojourn in theatre I had the misfortune to witness a blue-on-green with the fatal rounds fired from a UK AH. A month or so before another UK crew who were doing their utmost to support the boys had also fired shots into a UK position. Let us not also forget that (land based) friendly fire led to the famous Jugroom Fort rescue. In the Falklands a ship shot down a AAC gazelle....so it seems we are all fallible.

In the case I witnessed I can categorically state that the aircrew were not at fault, but it still happened, despite the use of a full CAS brief.

I have trained and worked with US air players and JTACs as well as many others from across the coalition and I honestly don't believe that they are significantly more pre-disposed to Blue-On-Blue than the British.

Happy to take constructive criticism from anyone who has actually taken or given a CAS brief in anger.

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by blind pue

the RAF had a lot of Trigger Happy pilots as well.

RAF fighter ace Wing Commander Douglas Bader was shot down in what recent research suggests was a friendly fire incident.

Are sure it was friendly fire? British fire yes, but friendly?

And of course the RN tended to fire at anything that got close.

And of course not to be left out, the Luftwaffe bombed Freiburg. Freiburg was heavily bombed during World War II. First, in May 1940, aircraft of the Luftwaffe mistakenly dropped approximately 60 bombs on Freiburg near the train station, killing fifty-seven people.

[SASless]

I recall the US Military kicking off a program to smooth Interoperability issues by creating a single common format for the transmission of Tactical Information. It was called JTIIDS or something like that. It was supposed to get all the services onto a common messaging format so everyone could understand the others. None of the services really wanted to change their own unique format but DOD put a boot on their necks and forced them to change.

How it turned out....I do not know as it was only the guerilla warfare stage when I left....well let's say there were some initial problems that needed some ironing out.

Has the UK MOD done the same.....got you lot all on the same page communication wise.....can the RAF, Army, Marines, and Navy chat like family or you all still using your own messaging format for the relay of tactical information, fire mission requests, control of air attacks, artillery, naval gunfire....or is it still like so many years ago....say Wellington's time?

[brickhistory]

....say Wellington's time?

Paging Dr. BEagle...

[Pontius Navigator]

SASLess, like you I am a little out of touch but we had IJMS and the RN in various other systems Link 10 and so on. The goal was Link 16.

Then we got JTIDS. The problem I understand is that not everyone can afford it and those that have it have to share the timeslots. Good yes, panacea, not yet. For that you need Dale Brown and a God's eye view.

[VX275]

Blind Pue, you fail to mention the naval gunfire that caused the American C-47 pilots to cast off the gliders assaulting Sicily so early that they didn't make landfall and several hundered drowned.

Allied heavy bombers bombed the headquarters of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division and 1st Polish Armoured Division during Operation Totalize, causing

By Allied you mean American. This was the incident that so angered my father, he could accept 'friendly fire' when in close contact but this incident was 12 miles behind the lines.

[GreenKnight121]

Heavy bombers from RAF Bomber Command were indeed part of the operation, but as usual they had the night-bombing missions while the USAAF bombers had the daylight missions, so it was easy to tell who bombed what (and whom).

And yes, the "blue-on-blue" was during the daylight.