British Troops Gunned Down by US Army Apache NEARLY 3 YEARS AGO!!
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British Troops Gunned Down by US Army Apache NEARLY 3 YEARS AGO!!
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
If only there were some massively complex way to avoid this kind of tragedy:
1. IP (initial point)
2. Heading to the target
3. Distance to the target
4. Target elevation above sea level
5. Target description
6. Target coordinates (TACAN radial/DME, lat/longs, or grid)
7. How the target may be marked (smoke, laser TISL code)
8. Location of friendlies
9. Egress direction
2. Heading to the target
3. Distance to the target
4. Target elevation above sea level
5. Target description
6. Target coordinates (TACAN radial/DME, lat/longs, or grid)
7. How the target may be marked (smoke, laser TISL code)
8. Location of friendlies
9. Egress direction
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Quotes from the article:
And could someone, the OP or a Mod, edit the thread title to reflect the fact that this incident occurred DECEMBER 2009, and not recently (as was my impression until I opened & read the link)?
A drone fitted with a camera and two US Apaches flew to the patrol base, which was a compound with mud walls, bought from a local owner some weeks before and not on official maps.
Winter said the mistaken view that the British base was an insurgents' compound was shared with key personnel.
In his opening statement, Winter said throughout the incident the US Apache helicopter crews were not informed, nor did they ask for the exact location of Patrol Base Almas.
He said: "As a consequence, they were unaware that the compound they were observing and in which they believed they had positively identified insurgents was, in fact, Patrol Base Almas."
He described how, with "total disorientation" now in place, the Apaches were authorised to engage.
"Fused by the overwhelming belief that Patrol Base Almas was at risk of being overrun, the subsequent reactions and actions to these events created a devastating cumulative effect," he said.
Winter said that because of the involvement of the US Apache helicopters, the number of personnel and the different locations, the sequence of events that unfolded was highly complex.
As a result, he said he would consider all that was visible in the context of the fact that the base was not on the map.
He said: "As a consequence, they were unaware that the compound they were observing and in which they believed they had positively identified insurgents was, in fact, Patrol Base Almas."
He described how, with "total disorientation" now in place, the Apaches were authorised to engage.
"Fused by the overwhelming belief that Patrol Base Almas was at risk of being overrun, the subsequent reactions and actions to these events created a devastating cumulative effect," he said.
Winter said that because of the involvement of the US Apache helicopters, the number of personnel and the different locations, the sequence of events that unfolded was highly complex.
As a result, he said he would consider all that was visible in the context of the fact that the base was not on the map.
Last edited by GreenKnight121; 4th Sep 2012 at 03:44.
He described how, with "total disorientation" now in place, the Apaches were authorised to engage.
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British Troops Gunned Down by US Army Apache
Before people start jumping down the necks of the crews. It could have happened to anyone. I flew back on a Tristar with 2 guys that had been hit by a UK apache in a blue on blue. There were no hard feelings, **** can and does happen. Sadly all we can do in minimise the risk, not eradicate it.
So the Crews are given bum poop....and it is "their" fault?
I suppose the guys on the ground had not marked their position using smoke, panels, or strobes....were not talking to the Apaches?
Some of you Brits love to bash the Yanks when things like this happens....yet as we all know and is evidenced here....when it is Brit on Brit or Brit on American....then mum is the word.
I wonder if it is a case of Penis envy with those that do.....you show up with a small presence and then try to act like you are the only guys in the sandbox to hear you tell it.
The OP fully intended to bash Americans as shown by the title.
Friendly fire mishaps happen in War
Always has....always will.
Let's learn from them....do our best to prevent them....but when they do happen....get over it and move on.
As the good book says...."Let he who be without Sin....cast the first Stone."!
I suppose the guys on the ground had not marked their position using smoke, panels, or strobes....were not talking to the Apaches?
Some of you Brits love to bash the Yanks when things like this happens....yet as we all know and is evidenced here....when it is Brit on Brit or Brit on American....then mum is the word.
I wonder if it is a case of Penis envy with those that do.....you show up with a small presence and then try to act like you are the only guys in the sandbox to hear you tell it.
The OP fully intended to bash Americans as shown by the title.
Friendly fire mishaps happen in War
Always has....always will.
Let's learn from them....do our best to prevent them....but when they do happen....get over it and move on.
As the good book says...."Let he who be without Sin....cast the first Stone."!
As you say SAS, this can [and does] happen across most operations, and with the involvement of forces from numerous nations.
It just so happens that when those from 'the land of the free' are on the trigger, it happens a lot more often.
I would suggest your 'penis envy' comment underlies an overly defensive attitude and is inappropriate.
For such a [normally] balanced and sensible poster your above comments is a little inflammatory and unhelpful.
Perhaps we should have kept our 'small presence' at home and saved the lives of 600 odd UK troops, leaving the US to go about its heavy handed business across Iraq and Afghanistan unhindered by our presence.
Or we could have turned up 3 years after the war started......
I am not at all envious of the massive penis you seem to have positioned in the middle of your forehead when penning the above post.
However, I agree that we should let those investigating get on with it without speculation.
It just so happens that when those from 'the land of the free' are on the trigger, it happens a lot more often.
I would suggest your 'penis envy' comment underlies an overly defensive attitude and is inappropriate.
For such a [normally] balanced and sensible poster your above comments is a little inflammatory and unhelpful.
Perhaps we should have kept our 'small presence' at home and saved the lives of 600 odd UK troops, leaving the US to go about its heavy handed business across Iraq and Afghanistan unhindered by our presence.
Or we could have turned up 3 years after the war started......
I am not at all envious of the massive penis you seem to have positioned in the middle of your forehead when penning the above post.
However, I agree that we should let those investigating get on with it without speculation.
Last edited by minigundiplomat; 4th Sep 2012 at 14:39.
Perhaps a little humanity is called for lest we forget who we are:
No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.
No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.
I'm not sure what the point of the OP was, whether good or malicious but name calling etc doesn't help in any debate.
Fact is, the US provides the overwhelming amount of CAS through the various ops over the years so they will likely have a higher incidence of blue-on-blue.
OTOH, I will never forget the Boss of an A-10 squadron standing up at a CAS meet in the Red Flag theatre at Nellis and saying he would be happy if his guys opened fire with only 70% certainty that they were on target (and this wasn't a Flagex). So my own personal anecdotal evidence does suggest that either US RoE is much less restrictive than the UK (I know it is) or that there are more "gung-ho" (for want of a better phrase) crews in the US forces. Again, in Afghanistan, I listened in on 2 x A-10 taking our TiC (we were about 5 mins out) and they went weapons hot immediately and did not appear to follow any of the procedures we had to. I'm not saying they were wrong btw, just bloody quick to open up and didn't ask any questions of the FAC to confirm whether this was the right course of action.
I don't know the details of the OP's linked story, but it would be very interesting to listen to the tapes.
Fact is, the US provides the overwhelming amount of CAS through the various ops over the years so they will likely have a higher incidence of blue-on-blue.
OTOH, I will never forget the Boss of an A-10 squadron standing up at a CAS meet in the Red Flag theatre at Nellis and saying he would be happy if his guys opened fire with only 70% certainty that they were on target (and this wasn't a Flagex). So my own personal anecdotal evidence does suggest that either US RoE is much less restrictive than the UK (I know it is) or that there are more "gung-ho" (for want of a better phrase) crews in the US forces. Again, in Afghanistan, I listened in on 2 x A-10 taking our TiC (we were about 5 mins out) and they went weapons hot immediately and did not appear to follow any of the procedures we had to. I'm not saying they were wrong btw, just bloody quick to open up and didn't ask any questions of the FAC to confirm whether this was the right course of action.
I don't know the details of the OP's linked story, but it would be very interesting to listen to the tapes.
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If only there were some massively complex way to avoid this kind of
tragedy:
mgd...
If sasless had bothered to read all the previous posts he might have noticed that the great majority were against the tone of the OP.
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I have no reason to doubt that all players in this tragedy knew CAS briefs intimately.
I would be very interested to hear who the 'key personnel' mentioned were as it seems possible to me that one was the (nationality unknown) JTAC at or near (very important distinction) the scene. Of course I may be wrong and as I wasn't there that remains simply a personal suspicion.
Let us also consider the fact that the PB hadn't made it onto mapping despite being 'ours' quote <<for weeks>>. My point being that there is a chain of events here, not just one trigger squeeze. If the drone, the AH and whoever they were talking to (air support having been 'called in') were all of the opinion that this was a EF position (or didn't pipe up despite thinking the opposite) then this has to be a more in depth failing than a single operator messing up.
In a partial answer to BEagle's query. One of the important concepts about a lack of SA is that you may well think you have complete SA. One might be unaware one was confused or even in a confused situation.
Key point. Hands up who thinks that passing friendly position as implied in the article (not...repeat not...as per line 8 - there is a massive difference) is a great idea? I'm pretty sure the last time something like this was being hauled through the press we were debating why on earth the CAS crew had been given the friendly posit.
Lastly. It might well turn out that someone was negligent or incompetent or even criminal. It might turn out that all players were simply trying their hardest in a desperate situation. A tragedy nonetheless.
I would be very interested to hear who the 'key personnel' mentioned were as it seems possible to me that one was the (nationality unknown) JTAC at or near (very important distinction) the scene. Of course I may be wrong and as I wasn't there that remains simply a personal suspicion.
Let us also consider the fact that the PB hadn't made it onto mapping despite being 'ours' quote <<for weeks>>. My point being that there is a chain of events here, not just one trigger squeeze. If the drone, the AH and whoever they were talking to (air support having been 'called in') were all of the opinion that this was a EF position (or didn't pipe up despite thinking the opposite) then this has to be a more in depth failing than a single operator messing up.
In a partial answer to BEagle's query. One of the important concepts about a lack of SA is that you may well think you have complete SA. One might be unaware one was confused or even in a confused situation.
Key point. Hands up who thinks that passing friendly position as implied in the article (not...repeat not...as per line 8 - there is a massive difference) is a great idea? I'm pretty sure the last time something like this was being hauled through the press we were debating why on earth the CAS crew had been given the friendly posit.
Lastly. It might well turn out that someone was negligent or incompetent or even criminal. It might turn out that all players were simply trying their hardest in a desperate situation. A tragedy nonetheless.
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Let us not forget the GW1 Brit fatalities that were the result of US aircrew action; and then there was the infamous video (released by Assange's WikiLeaks?) of the group of unarmed men (including journalists) shot up by a US helicopter.
We would like to see more restraint/care - not just for our own men but for the innocent "collateral" civilians.
We would like to see more restraint/care - not just for our own men but for the innocent "collateral" civilians.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Viz the Jaguar attack with live HE on the wrong island on the wrong track off the wrong coast in training. It was lucky that he missed the bord watchers.
It was ever thus. This is an extract from a letter my father wrote from Normandy in August 1944.
I have seen many great performances by the AlliedAir Forces, the RAF boys are fairly accurate with the exception of the oddSpitfire & Typhoon who obviously can't cope with the speed of our advanceand give us the occasional strafing---- but those x ------ x Yanks, just drop their load wherethe deuce they think they will and on many occasions they have dropped them asfar as a dozen miles behind the front--- and in daylight at that. Somehow wearen't so enthusiastic about the US heavies and every time much prefer the Lancastersetc. of the RAF, even for close support at night.
By close support at night he meant advancing down a corridor only a 1000 yards wide between areas being bombed by main force heavies.
I have seen many great performances by the AlliedAir Forces, the RAF boys are fairly accurate with the exception of the oddSpitfire & Typhoon who obviously can't cope with the speed of our advanceand give us the occasional strafing---- but those x ------ x Yanks, just drop their load wherethe deuce they think they will and on many occasions they have dropped them asfar as a dozen miles behind the front--- and in daylight at that. Somehow wearen't so enthusiastic about the US heavies and every time much prefer the Lancastersetc. of the RAF, even for close support at night.
By close support at night he meant advancing down a corridor only a 1000 yards wide between areas being bombed by main force heavies.
Mods - editing the OP's title by clumsily adding "NEARLY 3 YEARS AGO" gives the impression that somehow this matters less than if it had happened a few days ago. Would it perhaps be more respectful to simply add "(Dec 2009)"?
Someone else complained that the original title was misleading in that it sounded like it had just happened. I don't think any disrespect is intended.
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 4th Sep 2012 at 21:30.