Helicopter downed over Damascus
The consensus on here seems to be that the crew's actions can and should be vindicated as they were "following orders".
What is the view then of the two Libyan pilots who refused to obey orders to bomb their own people and instead defected to Malta? At the time I seem to remember the overwhelming opinion on pprune was that they were corageous heros for having shown humanity in 'doing the right thing'.
Maybe opinions have changed...?
What is the view then of the two Libyan pilots who refused to obey orders to bomb their own people and instead defected to Malta? At the time I seem to remember the overwhelming opinion on pprune was that they were corageous heros for having shown humanity in 'doing the right thing'.
Maybe opinions have changed...?
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Another fishing type post?
Has anyone stated what that helicopter was doing just prior to this video footage? Was it on an humanitarian rescue mission? Was it a TV crew filming a national Geographic documentary on the flight of the humble bumble bee? To suggest those flyers were committing a criminal act with no proof at all is just plain wrong.
My own thoughts are that whoever was aboard that aircraft might not have survived and as such we should show some respect.. INNOCENT until Pprune fishermen\people suggest otherwise.
Has anyone stated what that helicopter was doing just prior to this video footage? Was it on an humanitarian rescue mission? Was it a TV crew filming a national Geographic documentary on the flight of the humble bumble bee? To suggest those flyers were committing a criminal act with no proof at all is just plain wrong.
My own thoughts are that whoever was aboard that aircraft might not have survived and as such we should show some respect.. INNOCENT until Pprune fishermen\people suggest otherwise.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
My major feeling is one of sympathy - for all involved. This is not a clear cut black and white situation.
You have a civil war with barbarism from both sides (see bombing at funeral in Damascus yesterday).
Sectarian warfare between Shia/Sunni/Alawite fanned by regional faction interests in Turkey/Saudi/Kuwait/Iran etc.
Those in the armed forces who do obey orders to shoot/bomb/shell towns/villages being shot on the spot and their own families/villages being targeted.
How would any of us behave if we were placed in such circumstances? What further atrocities will take place as the civil war develops and which families on either side will escape without lose of family, property, sanity and their own lives?
So, disapproval of their actions, incredible admiration for those brave enough to stande up and refuse to participate whatever the cost - but mainly great sympathy for all those trapped and engulfed in the insanity that is civil war.
You have a civil war with barbarism from both sides (see bombing at funeral in Damascus yesterday).
Sectarian warfare between Shia/Sunni/Alawite fanned by regional faction interests in Turkey/Saudi/Kuwait/Iran etc.
Those in the armed forces who do obey orders to shoot/bomb/shell towns/villages being shot on the spot and their own families/villages being targeted.
How would any of us behave if we were placed in such circumstances? What further atrocities will take place as the civil war develops and which families on either side will escape without lose of family, property, sanity and their own lives?
So, disapproval of their actions, incredible admiration for those brave enough to stande up and refuse to participate whatever the cost - but mainly great sympathy for all those trapped and engulfed in the insanity that is civil war.
You're quite right glojo. It turns out that it was actually a TV crew filming a National Geographic documentary on the flight of the humble bumble bee.
My apologies.
My apologies.
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melmothtw
No there is no such consensus here at all.
What there is, is an understanding that things are not black and white in any war, let alone a civil war.
Personally, with no dog in this fight, I tend to root for the rebels. This is probably due to my respect for their amazing courage and my "Britishness" when it comes to supporting the underdog despite the fact that in terms of national interest Assad is probably preferable in the long term.
I don't see a problem in supporting the defecting jet pilots without condemning the helicopter pilots. We do not know their personal circumstances.
If I was a single guy, I would like to think I would have defected rather than fight a civil war. If I was leaving my wife and kids behind then certainly not.
What I do know is that I would not wish the horror of all helicopter pilots, ie the 10 seconds of blazing agony begging for the release of the final impact that helicopter fires can cause purely based upon which side of a war you happen to be on.
Ironically, the ability to dehumanise the enemy to the point where you can rejoice in their agonized death as demonstrated above by heli-cal is the first step that normal, social humans need to go through to perform atrocities. Witness the huge number of normal Germans/Japanese who did terrible things after they came to believe that the enemy was not worthy of human respect.
People who understand that the world has many shades of gray and are just doing their job no matter how distasteful are far less likely to do something truly awful than the fervent believer.
Best take a close look at yourself, heli-cal.
No there is no such consensus here at all.
What there is, is an understanding that things are not black and white in any war, let alone a civil war.
Personally, with no dog in this fight, I tend to root for the rebels. This is probably due to my respect for their amazing courage and my "Britishness" when it comes to supporting the underdog despite the fact that in terms of national interest Assad is probably preferable in the long term.
I don't see a problem in supporting the defecting jet pilots without condemning the helicopter pilots. We do not know their personal circumstances.
If I was a single guy, I would like to think I would have defected rather than fight a civil war. If I was leaving my wife and kids behind then certainly not.
What I do know is that I would not wish the horror of all helicopter pilots, ie the 10 seconds of blazing agony begging for the release of the final impact that helicopter fires can cause purely based upon which side of a war you happen to be on.
Ironically, the ability to dehumanise the enemy to the point where you can rejoice in their agonized death as demonstrated above by heli-cal is the first step that normal, social humans need to go through to perform atrocities. Witness the huge number of normal Germans/Japanese who did terrible things after they came to believe that the enemy was not worthy of human respect.
People who understand that the world has many shades of gray and are just doing their job no matter how distasteful are far less likely to do something truly awful than the fervent believer.
Best take a close look at yourself, heli-cal.
Last edited by Tourist; 29th Aug 2012 at 09:39.
At the risk of flogging a dead horse here Tourist, I don't believe that anyone is 'rejoicing in the agonized death' of the crew of this helicopter.
The point that I and helical made was that the actions of the crew in attacking their own civilian population (assuming of course that they weren't actually making a documentary about bees, as glojo rather bizzarly suggests may have been the case) cannot be excused simply because they were obeying orders.
If you care to read back through the threads you will see that this was the beginning and end of our case. I've no more desire to see anyone die in the burning wreckage of a helicopter than you or anybody else has, and to suggest otherwise is to distort what was said.
The point that I and helical made was that the actions of the crew in attacking their own civilian population (assuming of course that they weren't actually making a documentary about bees, as glojo rather bizzarly suggests may have been the case) cannot be excused simply because they were obeying orders.
If you care to read back through the threads you will see that this was the beginning and end of our case. I've no more desire to see anyone die in the burning wreckage of a helicopter than you or anybody else has, and to suggest otherwise is to distort what was said.
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@ melmothtw
I think you're going to have to tell us what the difference between "civpop" and "armed rebels" is, and how you know which, exactly, the crew were attacking (assuming they were indeed attacking anyone).
I think you're going to have to tell us what the difference between "civpop" and "armed rebels" is, and how you know which, exactly, the crew were attacking (assuming they were indeed attacking anyone).
PTT, I use the same definition of "civpop" and "armed rebels" as the intnerational community did when it decided to intervene in Libya to prevent Gadaffi rolling into Benghazi and slaughtering his own people.
Then, and the countless other times that individual nations or the collective international community have intervened militarily in a civil war on humanitarian grounds (East Pakistan, Kosovo etc).
Again, I refer you to my original post copied below which was concerend only with insidiousness of using the defence of 'following orders'...
Then, and the countless other times that individual nations or the collective international community have intervened militarily in a civil war on humanitarian grounds (East Pakistan, Kosovo etc).
Again, I refer you to my original post copied below which was concerend only with insidiousness of using the defence of 'following orders'...
Quote:
...were doing as ordered for that is their job
They tried this defence at Nuremburg. Didn't work then, doesn't work now.
...were doing as ordered for that is their job
They tried this defence at Nuremburg. Didn't work then, doesn't work now.
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"If you care to read back through the threads you will see that this was the beginning and end of our case. I've no more desire to see anyone die in the burning wreckage of a helicopter than you or anybody else has, and to suggest otherwise is to distort what was said."
"For murdering their own citizens, the crew deserved everything they got."
Hmmm.
That sounds to me rather like a desire.
Just a few points.
They may or may not have killed their own citizens.
These citizens may or may not have been civillians, defected soldiers, rebels or foreign fighters.
They may or may not have delberately targeted non-combatants.
All these things are possible.
Murder, however, is a term for a court.
You or Heli-cal don't get to decide whether someone is a murderer based on 10 seconds of grainy footage of a helicopter crashing.
It is possible, but unlikely, that one day a court will decide who is a murderer in this conflict.
It is ironic that those peacenick types who are so intent on "justice" are those who are so quick to circumvent it and perform instant kangaroo courts serving down judgements :
"the crew deserved everything they got....."
before a shred of evidence has been put forward of any actions whatsoever let alone "murdering their own citizens".
"For murdering their own citizens, the crew deserved everything they got."
Hmmm.
That sounds to me rather like a desire.
Just a few points.
They may or may not have killed their own citizens.
These citizens may or may not have been civillians, defected soldiers, rebels or foreign fighters.
They may or may not have delberately targeted non-combatants.
All these things are possible.
Murder, however, is a term for a court.
You or Heli-cal don't get to decide whether someone is a murderer based on 10 seconds of grainy footage of a helicopter crashing.
It is possible, but unlikely, that one day a court will decide who is a murderer in this conflict.
It is ironic that those peacenick types who are so intent on "justice" are those who are so quick to circumvent it and perform instant kangaroo courts serving down judgements :
"the crew deserved everything they got....."
before a shred of evidence has been put forward of any actions whatsoever let alone "murdering their own citizens".
"If you care to read back through the threads you will see that this was the beginning and end of our case. I've no more desire to see anyone die in the burning wreckage of a helicopter than you or anybody else has, and to suggest otherwise is to distort what was said."
"For murdering their own citizens, the crew deserved everything they got."
"For murdering their own citizens, the crew deserved everything they got."
Maybe I didn't read helical's posts as thoroughly as perhaps I should, but my points still stand (irrespective of how you juxtapose my posts with those of other ppruners to paint a distorted picture of what I actually said).
Helical can answer for himself as to his views...
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melmothtw
You took on the defense of heli-cal when you said:
"I don't believe that anyone is 'rejoicing in the agonized death' of the crew of this helicopter."
I was not suggesting that you yourself had said it, but certainly you are correct to say that you needed to re-read heli-cal more closely before aligning yourself with him.
You took on the defense of heli-cal when you said:
"I don't believe that anyone is 'rejoicing in the agonized death' of the crew of this helicopter."
I was not suggesting that you yourself had said it, but certainly you are correct to say that you needed to re-read heli-cal more closely before aligning yourself with him.
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I totally accept that filming bumble bees from a helicopter is very much a tongue in cheek comment but please show me any actual footage you, or anyone else has of that very specific helicopter, flown by that aircrew that is attacking anything, or anyone. I know my comment was tongue in cheek, but I am certain you have NO IDEA what that actual helicopter was doing?
Are you seriously suggesting that ANY aircrew has to physically check out the ground target they have been tasked\ordered to attack? Do they land the helicopter, knock on the door, enter the property and then ensure it complies with the ongoing Rules of Engagement?
War is not nice and people get killed.
If an aircraft deliberately fires it weapons at an unauthorised target then I accept they need to be accountable for their actions and explain the reasons why they did what they did.
If an aircrew or any other military ship or vehicle attacks an authorised target and innocent civilians are harmed, injured or killed then yes, someone has to be accountable, but perhaps not those that pressed the relevant button.
To me we have a few folks that are intent on getting folks to bite and I guess they are never going to put themselves in harms way and so they feel the y can criticise those that have made a different type of decision.
Are you seriously suggesting that ANY aircrew has to physically check out the ground target they have been tasked\ordered to attack? Do they land the helicopter, knock on the door, enter the property and then ensure it complies with the ongoing Rules of Engagement?
War is not nice and people get killed.
If an aircraft deliberately fires it weapons at an unauthorised target then I accept they need to be accountable for their actions and explain the reasons why they did what they did.
If an aircrew or any other military ship or vehicle attacks an authorised target and innocent civilians are harmed, injured or killed then yes, someone has to be accountable, but perhaps not those that pressed the relevant button.
To me we have a few folks that are intent on getting folks to bite and I guess they are never going to put themselves in harms way and so they feel the y can criticise those that have made a different type of decision.
What I am suggesting glojo, and the ONLY thing I am suggesting, is that 'just following orders' is not a lgetimate defence to crimes against humanity (as defined by the UN), and hasn't been since 1945.
As has already been mentioned here, British military personal are obliged to disobey illegal orders for this very reason.
This was the only point I was making.
As has already been mentioned here, British military personal are obliged to disobey illegal orders for this very reason.
This was the only point I was making.
To me we have a few folks that are intent on getting folks to bite and I guess they are never going to put themselves in harms way and so they feel the y can criticise those that have made a different type of decision.
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What I am suggesting glojo, and the ONLY thing I am suggesting, is that 'just following orders' is not a lgetimate defence to crimes against humanity (as defined by the UN), and hasn't been since 1945.
As has already been mentioned here, British military personal are obliged to disobey illegal orders for this very reason.
This was the only point I was making.
As has already been mentioned here, British military personal are obliged to disobey illegal orders for this very reason.
This was the only point I was making.
You are the commanding officer of a submarine and have been given the coordinates of a target and told to launch weapons at that specific location.
Do you obey those orders?
You are the commanding officer of a submarine and have been given the coordinates of a target and told to launch weapons at that specific location.
Do you obey those orders?
Do you obey those orders?
Again though, the point I was making was that whatever decision you do make, right or wrong, don't expect to be able to stand up in court after the event (if that's where it lands you) and say "I was just following orders!"
If you care to check over my posts on this subject you will see that that is all I have been saying throughout...
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I don't know,
War is a bitch and making these awful decisions is not something everyone can do. Far better to let them 'film their bumble bees'
That just about sums it up and no disrespect to you or anyone else. I deliberately avoided using aircraft as an example but the decisions are the same. The commanding officer has NO IDEA regarding what that target is or if that missile will fly true or if things have changed without our intelligence services being aware of that change.
War is a bitch and making these awful decisions is not something everyone can do. Far better to let them 'film their bumble bees'
War is a bitch and making these awful decisions is not something everyone can do. Far better to let them 'film their bumble bees'
Having said that though, I would imagine it might be easier for the submarine commnder to plead his innocence at not knowing he was committing a war crime in that he was underwater and several hundred miles off shore at the time.
For the helicopter pilot flying over a populated civilain area in perfect visibility and firing rockets into that populated area (if that is what he was doing - the images of the downed helicopter appear to show it had rocket pods fitted), he might find his plea of innocence a little harder to prove.
Both cases would be a matter for the court to decide. Either way, if they had committed a crime against humanity they would have to offer a defence that goes beyond just obeying orders - the one and only point I have been making all along!
The fact that I don't know if I would obey the hypothetical order you fielded is neither here nor there - my original point and subsequent postings on the subject have nothing to do with what I would do in any particular sutuation, but with the fact that you cannot use 'obeying orders' as a defence against war crimes.
If you don't believe me, go ask the UN.
You are the commanding officer of a submarine and have been given the coordinates of a target and told to launch weapons at that specific location.
Do you obey those orders?
Do you obey those orders?
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"You are the commanding officer of a submarine and have been given the coordinates of a target and told to launch weapons at that specific location.
Do you obey those orders?"
Isn't that exactly what US Nuclear Sub commanders have to do
and as long as the message is real, launch the missiles as their
is no communication with HQ.
If you didn't, you wouldn't be a CO of a submarine for long ?
Do you obey those orders?"
Isn't that exactly what US Nuclear Sub commanders have to do
and as long as the message is real, launch the missiles as their
is no communication with HQ.
If you didn't, you wouldn't be a CO of a submarine for long ?