OCU and Flying Training
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Saffron walden
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Beags!
What an excellent reminisce!
Was the first all Hawk guy onto the mighty Jaguar, them went back to Brawdy to instruct on both Hawk and Hunter ( at the same time).
Privilege to fly both types, so your assessment of the aircraft made my day to remember each aircraft's foibles!
Do post again and dislodge those redundant brain cells!
Steve
What an excellent reminisce!
Was the first all Hawk guy onto the mighty Jaguar, them went back to Brawdy to instruct on both Hawk and Hunter ( at the same time).
Privilege to fly both types, so your assessment of the aircraft made my day to remember each aircraft's foibles!
Do post again and dislodge those redundant brain cells!
Steve
I asked the Kindle question a few weeks back, but I think it may be too graphics-heavy for that format. As I said at the time, I'll have to learn how to work a book again. An uncharitable soul on 'VisageLivre' (Ooh, I've found a way to get that word past the name police), replied that I'd have to learn to read first!
Hi Stevewearing,
Glad you enjoyed it!
Had they finally given up with radar ranging on the Hunter when you did the ciné phase? It was often going U/S and a number of sorties during my first TWU were DNCO'd because we had to use radar ranging during low level ciné weave, if I recall correctly.
"Track, track, throttle back....roll, airbrake....power!"
Another joy of the Hunter was the racket made by even a single 30mm Aden. Lots of noise and vibration and a faint smell of cordite. Whereas on the Hawk it was like the morning after a bad curry - rumbling, vibration and release from somewhere behind you....
After being posted to 58 Sqn at Wittering (last RAF pilot ever to be posted to a non-TWU Hunter squadron!), I had the joy of returning to Brawdy for most of the Summer of '76 as both 45 and 58 folded as soon as they knew I was coming, I guess...
So a couple of trips each day, usually in a single seater, plus the odd backseat Meteor 7 trip and some FAC-fun with the JFCATSU JP4 guys. Not a bad way to while away the weeks waiting for an OCU!
Back at Chiv, after finishing the course I was tasked with taking the SNavO (M*** P****r) over to Brawdy for a meeting. Whilst there, I chatted with a QWI chum and he told me that they were considering binning SNEB in favour of level bombing. I was asked to do a range check on the way home and vaguely remembered the old Caldy Gap procedure. Off we went, then I told them that the weather was fine for level bombing, but the cloudbase was too low for 10° or 15° mud moving. So Chive had Pembrey to itself for the rest of the day. But I was perplexed at why the Caldy Gap procedure hadn't seemed familiar - until it dawnwd on me that you weren't supposed to fly it at 250 ft! Still, no-one complained and the SNavO was none the wiser....
I went to Brawdy again a couple of years later on an exercise task. Whilst waiting for the QWI(L) to have the tyre he'd burst changed, I looked at the weapons league table on the wall and saw that they had indeed switched to levle bombing. An ex-Cranwell colleague explained that the QWIs had finally perfected the "Art of aiming at f*** all with f*** all", as he put it. He also told me that the first course who did their T7 trips OK then went off in the F6A / FGA9 and came back with horrendous scores. The QWIs went into the "clack, clack, clackityy, clack....out of range!" ciné room and took a look at the films...."You dangerous little buggers, why were you flying so f*****g low?", they queried. For indeed the team had been down amongst the tree tops when blasting their way to the bombing circle.
Then up spoke a QFI..."Did you lot allow for the different pressure error correction of the single seater?"
Collapse of stout party. Some back of a fag packet sums and a rebrief and all was fine again.
Such fun times. But do I hear that TWU live weaponry is likely to be a thing of the past with the Hawk T2? That'd be awful - it would be like watching porn rather than having sex!
The joys of coming back from the range with flashing Bingo lights and a good set of scores, rounded off with a blue note run-in and break perhaps a little too fast and a little too low will be something the synthetic weaponry thing will never be able to replicate correctly...
Glad you enjoyed it!
Had they finally given up with radar ranging on the Hunter when you did the ciné phase? It was often going U/S and a number of sorties during my first TWU were DNCO'd because we had to use radar ranging during low level ciné weave, if I recall correctly.
"Track, track, throttle back....roll, airbrake....power!"
Another joy of the Hunter was the racket made by even a single 30mm Aden. Lots of noise and vibration and a faint smell of cordite. Whereas on the Hawk it was like the morning after a bad curry - rumbling, vibration and release from somewhere behind you....
After being posted to 58 Sqn at Wittering (last RAF pilot ever to be posted to a non-TWU Hunter squadron!), I had the joy of returning to Brawdy for most of the Summer of '76 as both 45 and 58 folded as soon as they knew I was coming, I guess...
So a couple of trips each day, usually in a single seater, plus the odd backseat Meteor 7 trip and some FAC-fun with the JFCATSU JP4 guys. Not a bad way to while away the weeks waiting for an OCU!
Back at Chiv, after finishing the course I was tasked with taking the SNavO (M*** P****r) over to Brawdy for a meeting. Whilst there, I chatted with a QWI chum and he told me that they were considering binning SNEB in favour of level bombing. I was asked to do a range check on the way home and vaguely remembered the old Caldy Gap procedure. Off we went, then I told them that the weather was fine for level bombing, but the cloudbase was too low for 10° or 15° mud moving. So Chive had Pembrey to itself for the rest of the day. But I was perplexed at why the Caldy Gap procedure hadn't seemed familiar - until it dawnwd on me that you weren't supposed to fly it at 250 ft! Still, no-one complained and the SNavO was none the wiser....
I went to Brawdy again a couple of years later on an exercise task. Whilst waiting for the QWI(L) to have the tyre he'd burst changed, I looked at the weapons league table on the wall and saw that they had indeed switched to levle bombing. An ex-Cranwell colleague explained that the QWIs had finally perfected the "Art of aiming at f*** all with f*** all", as he put it. He also told me that the first course who did their T7 trips OK then went off in the F6A / FGA9 and came back with horrendous scores. The QWIs went into the "clack, clack, clackityy, clack....out of range!" ciné room and took a look at the films...."You dangerous little buggers, why were you flying so f*****g low?", they queried. For indeed the team had been down amongst the tree tops when blasting their way to the bombing circle.
Then up spoke a QFI..."Did you lot allow for the different pressure error correction of the single seater?"
Collapse of stout party. Some back of a fag packet sums and a rebrief and all was fine again.
Such fun times. But do I hear that TWU live weaponry is likely to be a thing of the past with the Hawk T2? That'd be awful - it would be like watching porn rather than having sex!
The joys of coming back from the range with flashing Bingo lights and a good set of scores, rounded off with a blue note run-in and break perhaps a little too fast and a little too low will be something the synthetic weaponry thing will never be able to replicate correctly...
But do I hear that TWU live weaponry is likely to be a thing of the past with the Hawk T2?
Now imagine if we had the technology to put actual releasable stores on the T2...
It does pain me as a QWI to know that the first time students drop a bomb or fire a gun will be on the OCU
Riiiiiiiiiiight - that'll save a few pennies, won't it?
No doubt in a few years time when the first few Typhoons start having airframe fatigue issues through OCU range work, someone will suggest gun pods and 4kg beer-can practice bombs on the Hawk again, but with a representative sighting system....
Hawk T3?
Last edited by BEagle; 21st Aug 2012 at 11:32.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Over the hill (and far away)
Posts: 396
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Right Beags - if only we had been allowed to drop the "real" thing instead of the the synthetic WRS, that would have been some big bang...
On topic: when I went through the TWCU course (1983-4), I found the nav instrutors to be generally of a destructive disposition, rather than in teaching mode. Most of them were from the B Force (the one that I recall from F-4s was actually OK), and the instructional technique consisted of "this is how to do it, get it wrong and we may give you one more chance, then you're (on review) chopped". Woe betide anyone who did not accept the doctrine unquestioningly; marked you out as bolshie, not a team player, not on my squadron, thanks.
The p(r)ick of the bunch was the senior nav inst, D*** K***.
Fortunately I learned quickly to say as little as possible and scraped through the course, to then undergo a more demanding op work up on a squadron. In a reversal of the TWCU scenario, the senior navs were fine, but some of the pilots not so. I recall vividly my first (famil to Germany) sortie; the briefing with the pilot leader started "three things I don't like: garlic, dog**** and navigators". I had been eating garlic the night before and was obviously a navigator; oh what fun we had.
Despite the discouraging start (I would happily have gone back to the V Force if there had still been one), I achieved CR status in the accepted time frame and went on to be a 4-ship lead, auth, programmer. Squeezed in a sim instrutor tour and a further GR1A tour in the Fatherland (in fact, stayed in the same MQ for just over 8 years).
Mister B
On topic: when I went through the TWCU course (1983-4), I found the nav instrutors to be generally of a destructive disposition, rather than in teaching mode. Most of them were from the B Force (the one that I recall from F-4s was actually OK), and the instructional technique consisted of "this is how to do it, get it wrong and we may give you one more chance, then you're (on review) chopped". Woe betide anyone who did not accept the doctrine unquestioningly; marked you out as bolshie, not a team player, not on my squadron, thanks.
The p(r)ick of the bunch was the senior nav inst, D*** K***.
Fortunately I learned quickly to say as little as possible and scraped through the course, to then undergo a more demanding op work up on a squadron. In a reversal of the TWCU scenario, the senior navs were fine, but some of the pilots not so. I recall vividly my first (famil to Germany) sortie; the briefing with the pilot leader started "three things I don't like: garlic, dog**** and navigators". I had been eating garlic the night before and was obviously a navigator; oh what fun we had.
Despite the discouraging start (I would happily have gone back to the V Force if there had still been one), I achieved CR status in the accepted time frame and went on to be a 4-ship lead, auth, programmer. Squeezed in a sim instrutor tour and a further GR1A tour in the Fatherland (in fact, stayed in the same MQ for just over 8 years).
Mister B
Beags. I was at Brawdy when we started the level bombing. It was great fun but I seem to recall we had to calibrate all the Hawk altimeters almost daily to make sure we were not flying toooooooo low!! A radio alltimeter would have done the job but no cash for mods!!
The seagulls at Pembrey got a bit of a shock too!!
The seagulls at Pembrey got a bit of a shock too!!
Since we're straying down memory lane to the hard old days on the OCUs, here are a few of my recollections.
I had the benefit of doing both AFT and TWU in the Hunter. (Arriving at Valley to fly Gnat or Hunter, my height made me too tall for the Gnat. When I went back as an instructor to fly Hunter or Hawk, my height made me too tall for the Hunter!) I certainly felt that the experience of swept-wing handling was a benefit at that stage, the 70s, for the OCUs we faced. With a Valley Hunter course behind me, I still found it challenging to start up and taxy as quickly as the TWU instructors. However, having been role-disposed to the Harrier from the Valley course, off to Wittering I eventually went.
233 OCU still had elements of the old (hard) school about it, and I struggled to keep up. The classic QWI style was evident to me on a dual sortie which included an FRA strafe attack. The 2 guns were each loaded with 30 rounds of ball. The QWI, flying from the back seat, ran in to the range at 250ft, pulled up, tipped in, fired and got a score of 28. Impressive though that was, he then requested to stay in the pattern for 1 academic run, in order to fire out. He did so, fired 1 round and scored 1 hit. Descending back to 250ft, he cleared from the range, saying "OK Bloggs, your turn next, you have control." Before the end of the course, with me still struggling, one of the better students decided it was all too difficult, and so withdrew from the course, and left the RAF.
Arriving on my first squadron as a fg off, after the arrival procedures, it was straight off to Deci for an APC. Still as the iffy JP, I looked forward to the final weapons competition with some trepidation. However, it actually seemed to go quite well. This was confirmed by the first view of the scores (nothing was called by the RSO), which then led to a serious QWI closed-doors gathering in the cine room, leading to the disqualification of my best SNEB score and my relegation down the table. They could not, however, dislodge the FRI who, to their chagrin, took the prize. (I know that one of those QWIs contributes here, but that is how I remember it.)
Shortly after that, the next OCU course produced a new sqn ldr flt cdr for my flight. He didn't make it to CR before being chopped on the sqn, which didn't do a lot for my confidence. In the end, I got through all of this, and hopefully it made me a more understanding instructor and supervisor in later years.
Regarding the permanence of sqn membership after arrival, on another sqn, new first tourist would have to wear the name badge FNG until it was sure that they were staying.
As an OCU instructor in the early 80s, I remember a Fast Jet Training Steering Committee (?) meeting at which the Phantom representative was bemoaning the quality of pilots coming their way, while the Harrier seemed to be getting the top students. I explained the failure of the experiment of our taking the mid-level students the year before, which led to a huge chop rate. The F4 man was getting little sympathy from the chairman, who asked how many the OCU had chopped in the previous 6 months. He knew the answer to be zero, so there was little proof of the problem. No doubt trying to break the impasse, the Tornado man produced a stunned silence when he declared "If there is a problem, send them to us. We have a relatively simple aircraft to fly."
Going back to the original question, it should not be forgotten that beyond the OCU, aircrew face an ongoing series of assessments that could jeopardise their career at any stage. There are PMEs (with more add-ons as age increases), supervisory checks, QFI checks, IRTs, QWI checks, trappers' visits, sim checks and many special-to-role checks every year, and at every level. While confidence levels may increase, you can never sit back and assume that you've totally hacked it.
I had the benefit of doing both AFT and TWU in the Hunter. (Arriving at Valley to fly Gnat or Hunter, my height made me too tall for the Gnat. When I went back as an instructor to fly Hunter or Hawk, my height made me too tall for the Hunter!) I certainly felt that the experience of swept-wing handling was a benefit at that stage, the 70s, for the OCUs we faced. With a Valley Hunter course behind me, I still found it challenging to start up and taxy as quickly as the TWU instructors. However, having been role-disposed to the Harrier from the Valley course, off to Wittering I eventually went.
233 OCU still had elements of the old (hard) school about it, and I struggled to keep up. The classic QWI style was evident to me on a dual sortie which included an FRA strafe attack. The 2 guns were each loaded with 30 rounds of ball. The QWI, flying from the back seat, ran in to the range at 250ft, pulled up, tipped in, fired and got a score of 28. Impressive though that was, he then requested to stay in the pattern for 1 academic run, in order to fire out. He did so, fired 1 round and scored 1 hit. Descending back to 250ft, he cleared from the range, saying "OK Bloggs, your turn next, you have control." Before the end of the course, with me still struggling, one of the better students decided it was all too difficult, and so withdrew from the course, and left the RAF.
Arriving on my first squadron as a fg off, after the arrival procedures, it was straight off to Deci for an APC. Still as the iffy JP, I looked forward to the final weapons competition with some trepidation. However, it actually seemed to go quite well. This was confirmed by the first view of the scores (nothing was called by the RSO), which then led to a serious QWI closed-doors gathering in the cine room, leading to the disqualification of my best SNEB score and my relegation down the table. They could not, however, dislodge the FRI who, to their chagrin, took the prize. (I know that one of those QWIs contributes here, but that is how I remember it.)
Shortly after that, the next OCU course produced a new sqn ldr flt cdr for my flight. He didn't make it to CR before being chopped on the sqn, which didn't do a lot for my confidence. In the end, I got through all of this, and hopefully it made me a more understanding instructor and supervisor in later years.
Regarding the permanence of sqn membership after arrival, on another sqn, new first tourist would have to wear the name badge FNG until it was sure that they were staying.
As an OCU instructor in the early 80s, I remember a Fast Jet Training Steering Committee (?) meeting at which the Phantom representative was bemoaning the quality of pilots coming their way, while the Harrier seemed to be getting the top students. I explained the failure of the experiment of our taking the mid-level students the year before, which led to a huge chop rate. The F4 man was getting little sympathy from the chairman, who asked how many the OCU had chopped in the previous 6 months. He knew the answer to be zero, so there was little proof of the problem. No doubt trying to break the impasse, the Tornado man produced a stunned silence when he declared "If there is a problem, send them to us. We have a relatively simple aircraft to fly."
Going back to the original question, it should not be forgotten that beyond the OCU, aircrew face an ongoing series of assessments that could jeopardise their career at any stage. There are PMEs (with more add-ons as age increases), supervisory checks, QFI checks, IRTs, QWI checks, trappers' visits, sim checks and many special-to-role checks every year, and at every level. While confidence levels may increase, you can never sit back and assume that you've totally hacked it.
Since we're straying down memory lane to the hard old days on the OCUs...
I recall one notice which went up:
Officers' Mess Ladies Night seats are limited. So the following order of preference will apply:
1. Those who didn't go last time.
2. Those who did go last time.
3. Students.
1. Those who didn't go last time.
2. Those who did go last time.
3. Students.
It was a breath of fresh air to be back amongst normal aircrew when I was binned off the course and following Biggin Hill Aircrew Reselection and a subsequent merry time at SORF Leeming, found myself at 230 OCU RAF Scampton.
So rather than learn actual, non-simulated weaponry on the dime-a-dozen Hawk, they'll do so on the cosmically expensive Typhoon?
Riiiiiiiiiiight - that'll save a few pennies, won't it?
Riiiiiiiiiiight - that'll save a few pennies, won't it?
noprobs
This was confirmed by the first view of the scores (nothing was called by the RSO), which then led to a serious QWI closed-doors gathering in the cine room, leading to the disqualification of my best SNEB score and my relegation down the table. They could not, however, dislodge the FRI who, to their chagrin, took the prize. (I know that one of those QWIs contributes here, but that is how I remember it.)
Anyway, being nice to FRIs reaped huge rewards during subsequent recce competitions!!
Sorry, jinda', but that's how it was at the time.... Honest!
But using 100% of their hours to graduate 30% of their students meant that, after investigation, things apparently changed for the better in subsequent years....
But using 100% of their hours to graduate 30% of their students meant that, after investigation, things apparently changed for the better in subsequent years....
Perhaps it shouldn't be surprising, but it still amuses me how much tradition/character/dysfunction/whatever is passed from OCU to OCU as aircraft types enter service and old ones disappear. TWCU inherited a great deal from the Bucc OCU - I recognise a lot of what BEags referred to from my experiences there (not as extreme, but definitely a parallel!). Many of the older navs saw definite shades of the Vulcan course as well. There are probably bits of both cultures still in existence up at Lossiemouth! From what I understood, the F3 OCU owed a lot to the Phantom course as well.
Regarding practice weapons, it's unlikely that you will see front-line types dropping many, if any practice bombs during an OCU course. Modern weaponry such as EPW2, PW4, Dual Mode Brimstone etc is all entirely assessable from video recordings of practice passes, which can be conducted on- or off-range. Essentially, the range is only required for hot strafe passes, which are still performed and scored as ever. The only requirement for practice bombs now is to provide hot passes for FAC training, as the NATO STANAG requires FACs to control xx hot passes to qualify - no such requirement for the aircrew themselves!
Regarding practice weapons, it's unlikely that you will see front-line types dropping many, if any practice bombs during an OCU course. Modern weaponry such as EPW2, PW4, Dual Mode Brimstone etc is all entirely assessable from video recordings of practice passes, which can be conducted on- or off-range. Essentially, the range is only required for hot strafe passes, which are still performed and scored as ever. The only requirement for practice bombs now is to provide hot passes for FAC training, as the NATO STANAG requires FACs to control xx hot passes to qualify - no such requirement for the aircrew themselves!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
the next OCU course produced a new sqn ldr flt cdr for my flight. He didn't make it to CR before being chopped on the sqn
I knew one sqn ldr nav, ex-F4, who then did a couple of tours the last of which was at the ministry. He had the age, appearance, and behaviour of an embittered 40 year old and according to him he withdrew from training as all hs potential subordinates were a generation younger than him. Personally, I don't think he could hack it.