"Bomber Command" ITV1 Programme
Take That, the WWII Campaign medals were the "Stars": Atlantic, Africa, Pacific, Burma, Italy, 1939/45 (with clasp BoB?), and the two earned by BC crews (inter alia) for before and after D-Day; the Aircrew Europe and the France Germany Stars. Like all campaign medals they were for specified areas of Operations. So any BC veteran will have the appropriate campaign medal already.
I think the confusion lies in the wish of Arthur Harris for a Bomber Campaign Medal issued for all his Command, both Air and Ground Crews alike. That would not have been a British Campaign Medal within the definition of the word, but one struck for service in a specific military formation. No such tradition or practice has ever existed for HM Forces AFAIK, before or since. It was an impossible ask I'm afraid.
The only other possibility was for a Bombing Campaign Star for the aircrew alone. In many respects that is what the Aircrew Europe one is, as it is known "in the trade" as the Bomber Command Star. Those who qualified for the France Germany Star shared it of course with the other Services involved in the advance across Europe into Germany after D-Day, including those in the rear echelons. Perhaps they are the ones who are most aggrieved at not getting an aircrew "BC Star"?
I think the confusion lies in the wish of Arthur Harris for a Bomber Campaign Medal issued for all his Command, both Air and Ground Crews alike. That would not have been a British Campaign Medal within the definition of the word, but one struck for service in a specific military formation. No such tradition or practice has ever existed for HM Forces AFAIK, before or since. It was an impossible ask I'm afraid.
The only other possibility was for a Bombing Campaign Star for the aircrew alone. In many respects that is what the Aircrew Europe one is, as it is known "in the trade" as the Bomber Command Star. Those who qualified for the France Germany Star shared it of course with the other Services involved in the advance across Europe into Germany after D-Day, including those in the rear echelons. Perhaps they are the ones who are most aggrieved at not getting an aircrew "BC Star"?
Last edited by Chugalug2; 3rd Jul 2012 at 22:47.
Chug, a fair post, but...
Here is the Clasp for the 1939 - 1945 Star:
...how about something similar for the strategic bombing campaign? Maybe it could "Bomber Command"?
LJ
Here is the Clasp for the 1939 - 1945 Star:
...how about something similar for the strategic bombing campaign? Maybe it could "Bomber Command"?
LJ
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Chug,
My late Father was absolutely incensed that, although the decision changed later, he was not initially entitled to a France and Germany, having been part of Op VARSITY, while remfs in Paris in 1945 were!
As it turned out, the GPR (after some heavy lobbying at quite senior level) did recieve the F&G Star.
My late Father was absolutely incensed that, although the decision changed later, he was not initially entitled to a France and Germany, having been part of Op VARSITY, while remfs in Paris in 1945 were!
As it turned out, the GPR (after some heavy lobbying at quite senior level) did recieve the F&G Star.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I put the plus one having read his Wikipedia entry. That one mission was hugely different from the other 102 for many reasons that I will not ennumerate.
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I agree entirely with Papajuliet - I thought that I had mis-heard the Nuremburg date until i ran through the recording that I had made.
What a bad slip-up, just goes to show that John Sergeant was only reading the script with no deep knowledge of Bomber Command operations - poor research on behalf of the scriptwriter as well!!
Took the shine off of an otherwise excellent programme - albeit a bit short - 81 operations by Sqn Ldr Bill Lucas DFC, wish we knew more of him, and the other survivors shown on the programme as some of the gunners had quite a high op total.
Allan
What a bad slip-up, just goes to show that John Sergeant was only reading the script with no deep knowledge of Bomber Command operations - poor research on behalf of the scriptwriter as well!!
Took the shine off of an otherwise excellent programme - albeit a bit short - 81 operations by Sqn Ldr Bill Lucas DFC, wish we knew more of him, and the other survivors shown on the programme as some of the gunners had quite a high op total.
Allan
PP said:
Whilst the whole thing was humbling, this was the line which 'flawed' me too. The political side makes my blood boil, every time it comes up.
Mrs G came in and asked, "What's this about then?"
I said, "It's about a bunch of really ordinary old blokes, playing down their extraordinary bravery."
I would like to retract the 'ordinary' remark.
CG
"Sqn Ldr Bill Lucas, DFC, pilot, 81 operations."
My jaw hit the flaw
My jaw hit the flaw
Mrs G came in and asked, "What's this about then?"
I said, "It's about a bunch of really ordinary old blokes, playing down their extraordinary bravery."
I would like to retract the 'ordinary' remark.
CG
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Originally Posted by papajuliet
It's a pity the presenter said May 30th instead of March 30th for the Nuremburg raid - programme credibility went at that point
Actually with those historians present I'm surprised it slipped through the net, unless of course it was a deliberate error inserted as a plagiarism detector.
It was way better than anything produced by the BBC recently.
I thoroughly enjoyed the programme. I had to miss the last 15 minutes so I don't know if this point was covered, but the ex air gunner called Wiseman was pretty obviously Jewish, and he had become a POW at some stage. What sort of treatment did Jewish POWs receive at the hands of the Germans, or were they given equal status with their non-Jewish fellow prisoners? I have always thought it was incredibly brave for a Jew to volunteer for aircrew, when in addition to the obvious dangers involved in flying on ops, there was the big unknown as to how you were going to be treated if you were taken prisoner.
Speaking as someone whose worst experience during six years of flying was discovering that the in-flight rations had been left behind, I found the programme totally humbling.
Speaking as someone whose worst experience during six years of flying was discovering that the in-flight rations had been left behind, I found the programme totally humbling.
Last edited by Tankertrashnav; 4th Jul 2012 at 09:59. Reason: typo
Leon and EA, the problem for BC was that it was overshadowed by the political groundswells of the end of the war. Allies became foes, enemies became friends. BC and Harris were both dropped like a hot potato, even by the RAF High Command! All of that is a comment of course on politicians and those who inhabit the firmament, not on the brave dedicated men and women of Bomber Command.
Even now, as other threads testify, this nation is still begrudging proper acknowledgement of the debt we all owe them. That is a comment on we all, not on them. Whatever amends might be made, I doubt if it can be done by the reissuing now of clasps, medals or stars. For better or worse that has been done, and all (though I take your point re your father's tardy award, EA) who were in a campaign, including the Bombing one, have received their appropriate star.
If a clasp to the 1939/45 star were to have been issued for BC aircrew instead, then I suggest that "Battle of Germany" would have been a more appropriate title, for was that not how Harris so described it?
Even now, as other threads testify, this nation is still begrudging proper acknowledgement of the debt we all owe them. That is a comment on we all, not on them. Whatever amends might be made, I doubt if it can be done by the reissuing now of clasps, medals or stars. For better or worse that has been done, and all (though I take your point re your father's tardy award, EA) who were in a campaign, including the Bombing one, have received their appropriate star.
If a clasp to the 1939/45 star were to have been issued for BC aircrew instead, then I suggest that "Battle of Germany" would have been a more appropriate title, for was that not how Harris so described it?
TTN:
I think that the treatment accorded to BC POWs, Jewish or otherwise, varied right from the moment of capture depending on into whose hands they fell. If it were by a mob or by the Gestapo then they were treated with equal status no matter what their faith, and lynched! Their best hope was to fall into the hands of the Luftwaffe at the earliest opportunity who AFAIK treated them all as equals and afforded them the protection of the Geneva Convention. There is of course a famous story of USAAF crew being removed from a Concentration Camp and the SS by a visiting Luftwaffe officer.
What sort of treatment did Jewish POWs receive at the hands of the Germans, or were they given equal status with their non-Jewish fellow prisoners?
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My Grand Parents lived in Blenheim Road, Ramsey Hunts, adjacent to RAF Upwood. We would hear the Merlins run up - probably on Mag: tests - all day long. Go to the bottom of the road and stand at the airfield perimeter to watch the fueling and arming.
We saw the uniformed crews in and out of the George Hotel in Ramsey.
My home was about 7 miles in a straight line, north of the airfield, I would lie in bed and listen to maximum loaded Lancaster's very low and clawing for height, one every few minutes, the windows rattled, the house shook.
The civilian population knew nothing of the losses, it was 'bad for civilian moral', in effect, half of those chaps climbing over my home never came back...we did not know this. WE KNOW NOW!
Heroes to a man.
We saw the uniformed crews in and out of the George Hotel in Ramsey.
My home was about 7 miles in a straight line, north of the airfield, I would lie in bed and listen to maximum loaded Lancaster's very low and clawing for height, one every few minutes, the windows rattled, the house shook.
The civilian population knew nothing of the losses, it was 'bad for civilian moral', in effect, half of those chaps climbing over my home never came back...we did not know this. WE KNOW NOW!
Heroes to a man.
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Excellent programme. Wiseman's views on the Hamburg and Dresden raids were illuminating. He was in a position to understand what we were really fighting for and what the consequences would have been had we lost.
Last edited by Genstabler; 4th Jul 2012 at 10:41.
Thread Starter
I seem to recall reading that Jewish servicemen were treated the same as anyone else for fear that to do otherwise might alert the Allies to the fate of civilians of the Hebrew faith. W/O Wiseman had, IIRC, escaped Germany or Austria and might have fared worse (as an obvious German speaker) than someone like Robert Stanford Tuck - who, despite being Jewish, probably struck the Germans in his POW camps as being about as 'British' as you could get.
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There is of course a famous story of USAAF crew being removed from a Concentration Camp and the SS by a visiting Luftwaffe officer.
Manfred von Richthoften and his "circus" initiated numerous encounters with our forefathers during WWI.
They were different times with different principles. The days of decency have long since gone!
Churchills Ghost,
"The days of decency have long since gone!"
What a strange, peculiar and very sad attitude to have to a period when 60 million human beings were killed by other human beings, the vast majority innocent civilians.
More than happy to consign those 'days of decency" to the history books thanks.
"The days of decency have long since gone!"
What a strange, peculiar and very sad attitude to have to a period when 60 million human beings were killed by other human beings, the vast majority innocent civilians.
More than happy to consign those 'days of decency" to the history books thanks.
Avitor,
"The civilian population knew nothing of the losses.."
Not true. Losses were announced daily on the BBC. They weren't terribly accurate, but they were read out after each and every night.
"The civilian population knew nothing of the losses.."
Not true. Losses were announced daily on the BBC. They weren't terribly accurate, but they were read out after each and every night.