RAF Aircrew Re-streaming
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RAF Aircrew Re-streaming
Good morning all,
Just a few questions that sprang to mind after watching 'Combat Pilot'.
If a Pilot were to fail Basic F.J training for instance whilst at Valley, how does the re-streaming process work?
One candidate on the programme was re-streamed to M.E, I think the Tristar.
Presumably, they could also be streamed to Rotary?
Would the same process occur with NCA? If a candidate does not make the rotary side, would he/she then re-stream to M.E?
Apologies for the long winded question(s).
Regards,
NDW.
Just a few questions that sprang to mind after watching 'Combat Pilot'.
If a Pilot were to fail Basic F.J training for instance whilst at Valley, how does the re-streaming process work?
One candidate on the programme was re-streamed to M.E, I think the Tristar.
Presumably, they could also be streamed to Rotary?
Would the same process occur with NCA? If a candidate does not make the rotary side, would he/she then re-stream to M.E?
Apologies for the long winded question(s).
Regards,
NDW.
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I cannot comment on the current situation, but whatever other replies you receive, bear the following in mind.
It is always subject to change in accordance with the needs of the Service and the whim of the Government. Over the years it has changed several times, and people are always caught out.
It is always subject to change in accordance with the needs of the Service and the whim of the Government. Over the years it has changed several times, and people are always caught out.
I think each case would be judged on merit i.e why did the individual fail? Is he/she better suited to another platform or are they just unsuitable for this task-period. There is no 'one size fits all'.
Also, as stated, it depends on the needs of the service at that point. I have seen some very capable people binned over the last few years due to lack of slots rather than lack of ability.
Good luck
Also, as stated, it depends on the needs of the service at that point. I have seen some very capable people binned over the last few years due to lack of slots rather than lack of ability.
Good luck
If a basic lack of captaincy is the reason for suspension, he/she would be unlikely to go rotary. ME may be an option if the board consider that time as a co is likely to lead to an improvement. If purely coordination or handling skills, restreaming unlikely.
"Also, as stated, it depends on the needs of the service at that point. I have seen some very capable people binned over the last few years due to lack of slots rather than lack of ability."
Does that then also indicate that perhaps some less than capable people have managed to gain their wings when there was a desperate need to fill slots some years?
Does that then also indicate that perhaps some less than capable people have managed to gain their wings when there was a desperate need to fill slots some years?
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On the NCA side it used to be the case that failing "multi engine" as an AEOp you would usually be offered LM ( but not always) although I know of at least one lucky sole that failed LM training and ended up AEOp Acoustics!
Overall though it depened on what the individual had failed on, some get offered re-streaming, some get sent back to trade (if their trade will take them back) others get sent back to civvie street.
Overall though it depened on what the individual had failed on, some get offered re-streaming, some get sent back to trade (if their trade will take them back) others get sent back to civvie street.
Last edited by GalleyTeapot; 13th Jun 2012 at 12:22.
All of the above may well have been true, but given the current over supply of aircrew of all descriptions I would now expect a failure of any training course to lead to a rapid exit from the service.
Might all be different in a year or two of course.
Might all be different in a year or two of course.
Does that then also indicate that perhaps some less than capable people have managed to gain their wings when there was a desperate need to fill slots some years?
(and thanks for keeping it real, Mr B 
)
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although I know of at least one lucky sole that failed LM training and ended up AEOp Acoustics!
But seriously, I know of one pilot who was deemed unsuitable for FJs, was re-streamed rotary, failed that and later surprisingly turned up as a ME pilot.
Unfortunately, he killed himself and six other crew members with him when he crashed in a very high profile way, during an official flying display.
Last edited by ShyTorque; 13th Jun 2012 at 14:29.
Gentleman Aviator
But seriously, I know of one pilot who was deemed unsuitable for FJs, was re-streamed rotary, failed that and later surprisingly turned up as a ME pilot.
..... supply and demand and all that (as stated above), but sometimes I still wonder what if ......
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Can't comment on NCOs, but the guy from combat pilot who was chopped ended up and is still on Hercs, and all of the 6 of us who went at the same time fortunately managed to restream onto multis or rotary.
We asked the question at our interviews with the Staish, someone did some paperwork, someone else made a decision and within 6 weeks I was at groundschool for my new stream. We were very fortunate that there was some spare capacity in the system at the time. As far as I know, all of us who went multis are still flying in the RAF. At least one is a Sqn Ldr.
That was about 6 months before the Jetstream went out of service, creating a massive backlogue, whereupon some of our fellow Valley/OCU dropouts ended up leaving or retreading as navs. And of course before the fiasco of Linton grads getting forced to restream/out the door.
Oldbeefer's correct, they look for potential captaincy skills, ability etc. Obviously, some people are chopped for pure lack of ability, some just can't handle single seat but may be excellent in a multi-crew environment.
Now, for Cod's sake get on with it!
We asked the question at our interviews with the Staish, someone did some paperwork, someone else made a decision and within 6 weeks I was at groundschool for my new stream. We were very fortunate that there was some spare capacity in the system at the time. As far as I know, all of us who went multis are still flying in the RAF. At least one is a Sqn Ldr.
That was about 6 months before the Jetstream went out of service, creating a massive backlogue, whereupon some of our fellow Valley/OCU dropouts ended up leaving or retreading as navs. And of course before the fiasco of Linton grads getting forced to restream/out the door.
Oldbeefer's correct, they look for potential captaincy skills, ability etc. Obviously, some people are chopped for pure lack of ability, some just can't handle single seat but may be excellent in a multi-crew environment.
Now, for Cod's sake get on with it!
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I have served on the relevant training sub-committees.
As stated the Service come first. Essentially aircrew were all selected for their suitability for FJ. At a particular point in training some were streamed ME as they were deemed less suitable for FJ. Some lesser candidates continued on a FJ stream on a make or break process.
Those that were subsequently chopped were unlikely to be restreamed ME or RW. If there were vacancies in other branches, essentially the non-aptitude roles and those not requiring specialist qualifications, then they may, assuming suitable PQs, be offered rebranching.
If there were no suitable vacancies then their services would be deemed no longer required.
As stated the Service come first. Essentially aircrew were all selected for their suitability for FJ. At a particular point in training some were streamed ME as they were deemed less suitable for FJ. Some lesser candidates continued on a FJ stream on a make or break process.
Those that were subsequently chopped were unlikely to be restreamed ME or RW. If there were vacancies in other branches, essentially the non-aptitude roles and those not requiring specialist qualifications, then they may, assuming suitable PQs, be offered rebranching.
If there were no suitable vacancies then their services would be deemed no longer required.
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FED is quite right. The Training Committee had oversight of all ab initio aircrew through training, through the OCU, until they had been on the sqn for 6 months or until they achieved an operational category.
The oversight was also extended to other aircrew under going OCU courses later on in their careers.
The oversight was also extended to other aircrew under going OCU courses later on in their careers.
I've been involved in the system, perhaps more recently than PN if his age is remotely accurate...!
There wasn't any definitive answer on what would happen to someone. If they were chopped from Linton or Valley, they'd have gone through a long process of warning paperwork, extra flying, and checks by senior supervisors.
When they still failed to make the standard, they'd be presented to a suspension board, chaired by a Sqn Ldr and staffed by a couple of Flt Lt QFIs who didn't generally have contact with the student. They'd take in all of his reports, including previous courses if necessary, and make a recommendation.
Depending on the reason someone failed, there might be reasons why they're suited to RW or ME or another branch entirely. I've seen students recommended for both other pilot streams, some recommended for nav, and others receive the recommendation that they don't go anywhere near an aircraft again.
The recommendations would go on to TG/22Gp via the Stn Cdr's endorsement, and then it was up to them. Streaming in the first place was down to service needs and availability, so the same process would be adhered to here. If there was space, and the recommendation made them sound like a good bet for RW/ME training, then they'd go there; better to have a guy with 80hrs Tutor, 140hrs Tucano and 50hrs Hawk start the training than someone with just 80hrs Tutor!
There was never a set agenda that said "no restreaming," but every time a student didn't get his first choice it set waves amongst the student body that that was now policy. It was difficult to convince them that they'd all get a fair shot if they failed. As a FJ QFI, it was sad to hear of capable students out of EFT putting ME as their first choice because they didn't want to run the risk of being chopped at Linton/Valley and getting nothing; they thought they'd probably pass ME, so best to go there direct!
There wasn't any definitive answer on what would happen to someone. If they were chopped from Linton or Valley, they'd have gone through a long process of warning paperwork, extra flying, and checks by senior supervisors.
When they still failed to make the standard, they'd be presented to a suspension board, chaired by a Sqn Ldr and staffed by a couple of Flt Lt QFIs who didn't generally have contact with the student. They'd take in all of his reports, including previous courses if necessary, and make a recommendation.
Depending on the reason someone failed, there might be reasons why they're suited to RW or ME or another branch entirely. I've seen students recommended for both other pilot streams, some recommended for nav, and others receive the recommendation that they don't go anywhere near an aircraft again.
The recommendations would go on to TG/22Gp via the Stn Cdr's endorsement, and then it was up to them. Streaming in the first place was down to service needs and availability, so the same process would be adhered to here. If there was space, and the recommendation made them sound like a good bet for RW/ME training, then they'd go there; better to have a guy with 80hrs Tutor, 140hrs Tucano and 50hrs Hawk start the training than someone with just 80hrs Tutor!
There was never a set agenda that said "no restreaming," but every time a student didn't get his first choice it set waves amongst the student body that that was now policy. It was difficult to convince them that they'd all get a fair shot if they failed. As a FJ QFI, it was sad to hear of capable students out of EFT putting ME as their first choice because they didn't want to run the risk of being chopped at Linton/Valley and getting nothing; they thought they'd probably pass ME, so best to go there direct!
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But then again there was one ermm pilot that went from Rotary wing to Tonkas... Was the only one I knew that did, but it does show that it is or can be a two way process.
Last edited by NutLoose; 13th Jun 2012 at 18:27.
It can be a 2-way street, but not often in the training system. I don't think it ever happened that someone got partly through ME or RW training to be told "we think you're too good for here, off you go to Linton!"
There are plenty of people who've started off in the RW/ME worlds and ended up flying FJ though, but normally via instructional work on the Tucano and/or Hawk.
There are plenty of people who've started off in the RW/ME worlds and ended up flying FJ though, but normally via instructional work on the Tucano and/or Hawk.
But then again there was one ermm pilot that went from Rotary wing to Tonkas...
CG
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5F6B, very true what you say. You gave the nuts and bolts, I was covering more the higher level on the MOD committee.
The problem with assuming that you might get re-streamed is the much smaller requirements with far fewer, if any, jobs where a weak student can be brought on. The AD OCU used to be particularly robust with weak students.
The problem with assuming that you might get re-streamed is the much smaller requirements with far fewer, if any, jobs where a weak student can be brought on. The AD OCU used to be particularly robust with weak students.