New Hawks and PC 21s for Saudi
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New Hawks and PC 21s for Saudi
The UK's BAE Systems has secured a £1.6bn contract to support future aircrew training requirements of the RSAF which includes the supply of 22 new Hawk AJTs plus 55 Pilatus PC-21 trainers and other aircrew training equipment.
Also included in the deal, announced Wednesday, is an initial support package including the provision of spares, technical publications and post design support.
Also included in the deal, announced Wednesday, is an initial support package including the provision of spares, technical publications and post design support.
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What's your knowledge of the Hawk AJT Heathrow Harry?
Whilst the shape of the airframe maybe similar there are only a tiny percentage of identical parts. It is, essentially, a totally new aircraft that looks like the old one. The same can't be said of the T38!
Whilst the shape of the airframe maybe similar there are only a tiny percentage of identical parts. It is, essentially, a totally new aircraft that looks like the old one. The same can't be said of the T38!
Last edited by High_Expect; 23rd May 2012 at 14:56.
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Yep the AJT Hawk is a new build with a FADEC equipped engine and cutting edge avionics suite.
It works extremely well at what it does.
What part of that is long in the tooth? Sort of . . . a bit like a Porsche 911?
It works extremely well at what it does.
What part of that is long in the tooth? Sort of . . . a bit like a Porsche 911?
HH, the Talon ceased production some years before Hawk flew.
That Hawk is being continually updated and improved is testimony to the sound design, indeed as a prime contender to replace Talon it should be acknowledged as a thoroughbred classic.
PS I suspect it will lose out in the T-X competition to the T-50 'cos it's faster and quite pretty
That Hawk is being continually updated and improved is testimony to the sound design, indeed as a prime contender to replace Talon it should be acknowledged as a thoroughbred classic.
PS I suspect it will lose out in the T-X competition to the T-50 'cos it's faster and quite pretty
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Hmmm let me think... They have the Typhoon and they've built a Typhoon lead in trainer with open architecture software. Nah I can't think why they would have bought it either - must be fraud. 
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It is good news that this contract will provide work for some British manufacturers and their workforce.
The whole arms-trade business is not always conducted in the clearest of waters, and can be questioned on any number of moral or ethical levels. In many areas where such trade is carried out, it must be extremely difficult to stay on the right side of every moral and ethical business benchmark. But we need our factories and people to have work, and the defence industry is one of our biggest foreign earners. In a nice world you might choose to do things differently. In this one, well you have to do what you have to do. Always the case, and an even more stark reality right now.
Long may the Hawk continue to survive and prosper. A win in the US would be a real boost. The competition is certainly hotting up though.
The whole arms-trade business is not always conducted in the clearest of waters, and can be questioned on any number of moral or ethical levels. In many areas where such trade is carried out, it must be extremely difficult to stay on the right side of every moral and ethical business benchmark. But we need our factories and people to have work, and the defence industry is one of our biggest foreign earners. In a nice world you might choose to do things differently. In this one, well you have to do what you have to do. Always the case, and an even more stark reality right now.
Long may the Hawk continue to survive and prosper. A win in the US would be a real boost. The competition is certainly hotting up though.
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The Hawk T2 indeed only has about 10% commonality with the T1, the biggest difference you would note would be the all glass cockpit, but it also features a new wing, forward and centre fuselage, fin and tailplane. The new variants also have four times the fatigue life of the original aircraft.
Hawk T2
As someone who is reasonably well acquainted with the T2 I can honestly say it is a bloody great little aeroplane (blatant attempt to cosy up to BAE for potential future jobs!).
As a training aircraft it is the best thing available today. It's main competitors are the M346 and the T50. The 346 is a fantastic aircraft but, in my opinion, is too far beyond what you need of a training platform and more akin to a frontline fighter. The jump from Basic Trainer to jet trainer would be a little too big.
The T50 has the same issue and both it and the 346 are a tad too pricey. The Hawk is tried and tested and does everything you need from a trainer. The fact that the T2 is already in service and has it's second customer also weigh heavily in it's favour.
Sadly though I don't think the T2 will win in the USA. I would be delighted, however, to be proven wrong and would happily travel to the States in a BAE flying suit and help to teach the Yanks how to fly it!
BV
As a training aircraft it is the best thing available today. It's main competitors are the M346 and the T50. The 346 is a fantastic aircraft but, in my opinion, is too far beyond what you need of a training platform and more akin to a frontline fighter. The jump from Basic Trainer to jet trainer would be a little too big.
The T50 has the same issue and both it and the 346 are a tad too pricey. The Hawk is tried and tested and does everything you need from a trainer. The fact that the T2 is already in service and has it's second customer also weigh heavily in it's favour.
Sadly though I don't think the T2 will win in the USA. I would be delighted, however, to be proven wrong and would happily travel to the States in a BAE flying suit and help to teach the Yanks how to fly it!
BV
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some people seem to have got a bit worked up because I suggested the Hawk was long in the tooth
I think it's a damn fine aeroplane and it has filled a very large gap for a long time
BUT - it was designed 40 years ago. Admittedly you can keep a great plane running for a very long time (B-52, Herc. etc.) but buying a new trainer today you have to think you'll still be operating it in 30 years. I'm sure the Hawks will still be flying but then so will the Tiger Moths I see around on a fine day -great planes but maybe not quite what is wanted..
I think it's a damn fine aeroplane and it has filled a very large gap for a long time
BUT - it was designed 40 years ago. Admittedly you can keep a great plane running for a very long time (B-52, Herc. etc.) but buying a new trainer today you have to think you'll still be operating it in 30 years. I'm sure the Hawks will still be flying but then so will the Tiger Moths I see around on a fine day -great planes but maybe not quite what is wanted..
The 346 is a fantastic aircraft but, in my opinion, is too far beyond what you need of a training platform and more akin to a frontline fighter. The jump from Basic Trainer to jet trainer would be a little too big.
We used to effectively have a 4-tier system before OCU; Tutor, Tucano, Hawk T1, Hawk T1A. There'd be room for a realignment back to that, with a smaller jet (like the M311?) filling the traditional FJ AFT role before something more capable like the M346 does the TW stuff.
Alternatively, you make your basic trainer more competent. They're already trying to introduce some of the FJ AFT syllabus into BFJT, and if they were operating the M311 or even just a heavily upgraded Tucano they could do a lot more to bridge the gap. Some basic trainers even had this as a selling point, that you could put it in a "baby" mode to restrict power and access to more complex systems, unlocking things like the simulated radar and full power as the student became more capable.
Something like the M346 would have enabled us to look at the companion trainer option too. Fit a Typhoon cockpit to it with an appropriate datalink, and then your poor Typhoon mates getting 10hrs a month have a fleet of cheaper aircraft to help maintain basic skills, play as the bandit, etc etc. A bit like some USAF units do with a horde of T38s next to an F22 squadron, fly them when there aren't F22 hours available and you also have free DACT on tap. I think EADS were looking at selling the Mako (is it still going) as this sort of aircraft?
That's what I would have done. Extend EFT a bit to introduce more concepts, and up-rate the Tucano or replace with the M311 for an old-school 2-part BFJT, with the latter part incorporating most of what 208(R) used to do. Something very capable like the M346 for TW, and as it's an expensive aircraft doing a short course, let it drip over into a companion trainer role with some of the fleet at the FJ MOBs, or paired with the OCUs to reduce some of their training burden.
The current system means we don't need more from 22 Gp, and we don't need a twin-engined afterburning advanced trainer, but it does mean there's a lot of work uploaded to the OCUs that could be done earlier and for less.
Not to say the T2's a bad choice per se. I haven't flown it, but I'm led to believe it at least now lets you teach AMRAAM tactics and simulated radar handling?
5F6B
Do you work for Ascent by any chance?!
The BFJT thing will be interesting to see when it's up and running. I like your ideas about companion trainers etc. The front-line support elements would be great too for all concerned. Maybe in less austere times it would all bear fruit.
You are correct about the T2 with AMRAAM etc. Pretty boring really. Pulls pin and runs away to a far away land!
BV
The BFJT thing will be interesting to see when it's up and running. I like your ideas about companion trainers etc. The front-line support elements would be great too for all concerned. Maybe in less austere times it would all bear fruit.
You are correct about the T2 with AMRAAM etc. Pretty boring really. Pulls pin and runs away to a far away land!
BV
No, I'm still "in;" but maybe I should send some of those studies to Ascent if they're recruiting...!
The CT idea actually saves money in hours and training, but costs more in up-front capital, which is why it's a shame it'll never happen. I worry that the current system is breeding dangers. Right now, a guy gets 60hrs in the Tutor, 120 in the Tucano, and then goes straight to the T2 now that 208's winding down? That must be about an 80hr course I'd guess, remembering my own FJ TW with a bit of conversion thrown in.
Then he goes to 29(R), where there are experiments with mostly-synthetic OCU courses; are they becoming the norm? People graduating and heading to the front line with 5 live sorties, basically a famil, first solo, and end-of-phase checks? Then he settles into 10-15hrs a month. Give him a M346 CT and you're mitigating a lot of risks there.
It'd be easily possible with a small jet as the basic trainer, but given the costs involve I should imagine we'll see a new cockpit and a few upgrades in the Tucano. Hopefully it's enough to teach things like proper tactical formation, but I can't see it fulfilling all the traditional "phase III" training. If it takes some strain off the T2 though, I'm sure we'll still manage.
The CT idea actually saves money in hours and training, but costs more in up-front capital, which is why it's a shame it'll never happen. I worry that the current system is breeding dangers. Right now, a guy gets 60hrs in the Tutor, 120 in the Tucano, and then goes straight to the T2 now that 208's winding down? That must be about an 80hr course I'd guess, remembering my own FJ TW with a bit of conversion thrown in.
Then he goes to 29(R), where there are experiments with mostly-synthetic OCU courses; are they becoming the norm? People graduating and heading to the front line with 5 live sorties, basically a famil, first solo, and end-of-phase checks? Then he settles into 10-15hrs a month. Give him a M346 CT and you're mitigating a lot of risks there.
It'd be easily possible with a small jet as the basic trainer, but given the costs involve I should imagine we'll see a new cockpit and a few upgrades in the Tucano. Hopefully it's enough to teach things like proper tactical formation, but I can't see it fulfilling all the traditional "phase III" training. If it takes some strain off the T2 though, I'm sure we'll still manage.