RAF Merlin Crews Screwed
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Melchett, WW
I think you both missed the point here - Rigga was clearly paraphrasing a statement about the Maritime Seedcorn initiative, in response to a Nimrod fleet poster (GT)
CS
Do you mean that some crew will go to the states for years to sit in the ex-presidential 101's waiting for some future delivery to the RAF of a totally unrelated craft?
CS
Last edited by camelspyyder; 6th May 2012 at 16:09. Reason: clarity
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high spirits
So with your deep understanding of all things Manning, with a heavy dose of cynicism to boot, what flying jobs do you advocate these guys and gals going into? Isn't everywhere full? The aircraft may not be going out of service like the Nimrod, but it's as good as when you factor in single service rivalries.
Which brings us back to the shocking lack of leadership from the senior 'leadership' - oh yes, and the so called politicians.....
So with your deep understanding of all things Manning, with a heavy dose of cynicism to boot, what flying jobs do you advocate these guys and gals going into? Isn't everywhere full? The aircraft may not be going out of service like the Nimrod, but it's as good as when you factor in single service rivalries.
Which brings us back to the shocking lack of leadership from the senior 'leadership' - oh yes, and the so called politicians.....
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Globefan,
You make my point very well. I'm not part of the force, but i happen to know it is made up of some relatively young aircrew who (if they have nothing to fly) could take their talents elsewhere. Offer them a redundancy package.
Instead, and because of politics, they are in a snare. Stay and do sh!t ground tour or PVR and lose all flying pay. The service tempted them in by offering FLYING. Now it should do the honourable thing and let some of them go (who want to) whilst they are still young enough to get jobs. There are places recruiting - north sea for example.
As usual the mantra would seem to be, let's make life miserable, then they will leave and we don't have to pay them off.
You make my point very well. I'm not part of the force, but i happen to know it is made up of some relatively young aircrew who (if they have nothing to fly) could take their talents elsewhere. Offer them a redundancy package.
Instead, and because of politics, they are in a snare. Stay and do sh!t ground tour or PVR and lose all flying pay. The service tempted them in by offering FLYING. Now it should do the honourable thing and let some of them go (who want to) whilst they are still young enough to get jobs. There are places recruiting - north sea for example.
As usual the mantra would seem to be, let's make life miserable, then they will leave and we don't have to pay them off.
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Has a point been missed here? If the RAF are losing airframes, surely it follows that their manning should also be reduced? The RAF seem to be clutching on to aircrew without actually reducing numbers even when they cant gainfully employ them. Its quite sad if you lose your seat but I'm pretty sure the MoD isnt a job creation scheme. Pretty shabby how certain elements within the RAF are actively trying to stitch the FAA up right up to handing the Merlins over.
Guess its payback time for the SHAR
Guess its payback time for the SHAR
Red On, Green On
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Apparently it's all smiles at Benson from the boys (and girls) in light blue 
:
Trailblazers lead the way for future Marines helicopter | Royal Navy - "RAF embrace arrival of Royal Navy"
:Trailblazers lead the way for future Marines helicopter | Royal Navy - "RAF embrace arrival of Royal Navy"
Last edited by airborne_artist; 3rd Jul 2012 at 15:12.
As we are regularly reminded to look at the way industry conducts business, what CEO or, more importantly, shareholders in their right mind would take a capability (fully trained and productive) and give it to another part of the same company and start again from scratch.........?
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Come and join us in civvy street, its not so bad, you need a stack of cash or a very big loan, a lot of hard work and in a couple of years hence you could be chained (financially) to the right seat of an orange airbus or something Irish....
Seriously, sort of, if the service is screwing you over and there is no respite on the horizon change suits. I did and it was a bumpy but interesting ride in 1995.
There is also a pilot shortage looming (has been for twenty odd years) so anyone with the required ability, including non flying service personnel, can give it a swing.
Oxford Kidlington just down the road from Benson....
Older civvy pilots like me fail their medicals, get fed up or have earned enough to get out so opportunities out there.
Bigpants
Seriously, sort of, if the service is screwing you over and there is no respite on the horizon change suits. I did and it was a bumpy but interesting ride in 1995.
There is also a pilot shortage looming (has been for twenty odd years) so anyone with the required ability, including non flying service personnel, can give it a swing.
Oxford Kidlington just down the road from Benson....
Older civvy pilots like me fail their medicals, get fed up or have earned enough to get out so opportunities out there.
Bigpants
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You're right, not a new capability for anyone. So why destroy the capability (trained crews) you already have and then train someone else to do the same thing at "x" cost ? It was a ridiculous decision, yeah, CHF may be saved, but it will prove to be a ridiculous decision when the RAF CH47 deploys on the boats to backfill the losses of chf lift due to the merlin failing to perform. Again. Jobs for the boys, no more, no less.
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The reason is simple. The RAF is run by men and ladies who do not do RW aviation. Unless you are a fast jet or a FW aircraft that provides a capability unmatched elsewhere in the Armed Forces then the RAF are not interested. The RAF are not interested nor do they understand rotary winged aviation and consider it best be left for the RN and AAC to use.
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Oh please...
Here we go again 
I hope not
Do we have to be so dramatic?
Lets get real, there is no cost in replacing 'x' with 'y' over the next 5-10 years, the Merlin OCF would still train people regardless of their colour of cloth (unless they are to lower standard of pilot and require more training?). The bean counters do not care who is in the course, as long as they put their bum on a seat. We would be training the same number of RAF crews over the next 5-10 years regardless.
It could also be argued that if (and it still is an if) Defence wants power projection through its carriers and not Expeditionary Air Wings (see Cats and Flaps thread if you need some bed time reading), then future long deployments at sea positioning '65,000 tonnes of diplomacy' around the globe are well suited to those brought up in the maritime environment (i.e. the Fisheads).
If however Defence just wants its future F-35s, AH, CH47 and Merlins to tip up and use the future carriers as a floating airfield for short periods, then lets re-visit a more Joint RW model (as per the current Joint F-35 plan) at the next SDSR. Then we can have a more mixed OCF throughput of RN and RAF (i.e. a Joint Force Merlin) or maybe take the leap to a Joint Rotary Force in toto?
As to capability delivery, lets do the homework and research before we sound off saying that the mighty wokka can do all the amphib stuff - across all areas, not purely in lift. If pure lift and the Chinook was the answer, then why did we have a Merlin force in the beginning, and why have we fought so hard to keep Puma 2? Amphibious operations and operating from the sea is not purely about aircrew, flying and deck landings, there is a plethora of other considerations that make a amphib capability.
We do need to be careful if we do go down what superficially appears a sensible, and cost effective option (i.e. our Airships and Blimps should be able to spin a Joint Force), then the next logical step is a Joint Force Apache, Joint Force Chinook, Joint Force Puma, all under Army, being deployed under a Joint Forces Command. It does not take a major step of logic to put all Battlefield Helicopters under Army full stop
Do we really want to be 'owned' completely by Army, waiting for a rotational light blue Commander JFC or CDS to ensure that we are not abused by the Army or maybe by then we are just all Army
As I have said before we have to be really careful when we start throwing around comments of cost in this current financial environment, as all we do is attract scrutiny into the way we do our business, and we might not be perfect in many areas.
From where I sit, my friends up the road all seem to be content with their lot (i.e. Merlin crews are [B]not[B] screwed), with the majority moving on to career developing future employment and jobs that they are happy with. Not all, but the majority.
I hope notDo we have to be so dramatic?
Lets get real, there is no cost in replacing 'x' with 'y' over the next 5-10 years, the Merlin OCF would still train people regardless of their colour of cloth (unless they are to lower standard of pilot and require more training?). The bean counters do not care who is in the course, as long as they put their bum on a seat. We would be training the same number of RAF crews over the next 5-10 years regardless.
It could also be argued that if (and it still is an if) Defence wants power projection through its carriers and not Expeditionary Air Wings (see Cats and Flaps thread if you need some bed time reading), then future long deployments at sea positioning '65,000 tonnes of diplomacy' around the globe are well suited to those brought up in the maritime environment (i.e. the Fisheads).
If however Defence just wants its future F-35s, AH, CH47 and Merlins to tip up and use the future carriers as a floating airfield for short periods, then lets re-visit a more Joint RW model (as per the current Joint F-35 plan) at the next SDSR. Then we can have a more mixed OCF throughput of RN and RAF (i.e. a Joint Force Merlin) or maybe take the leap to a Joint Rotary Force in toto?
As to capability delivery, lets do the homework and research before we sound off saying that the mighty wokka can do all the amphib stuff - across all areas, not purely in lift. If pure lift and the Chinook was the answer, then why did we have a Merlin force in the beginning, and why have we fought so hard to keep Puma 2? Amphibious operations and operating from the sea is not purely about aircrew, flying and deck landings, there is a plethora of other considerations that make a amphib capability.
We do need to be careful if we do go down what superficially appears a sensible, and cost effective option (i.e. our Airships and Blimps should be able to spin a Joint Force), then the next logical step is a Joint Force Apache, Joint Force Chinook, Joint Force Puma, all under Army, being deployed under a Joint Forces Command. It does not take a major step of logic to put all Battlefield Helicopters under Army full stop
Do we really want to be 'owned' completely by Army, waiting for a rotational light blue Commander JFC or CDS to ensure that we are not abused by the Army or maybe by then we are just all Army
As I have said before we have to be really careful when we start throwing around comments of cost in this current financial environment, as all we do is attract scrutiny into the way we do our business, and we might not be perfect in many areas.
From where I sit, my friends up the road all seem to be content with their lot (i.e. Merlin crews are [B]not[B] screwed), with the majority moving on to career developing future employment and jobs that they are happy with. Not all, but the majority.
