MOD Civil Servants to stop working.
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Go west young Jimlad, go west.
The shortage of skilled workers is so dire that the Federal Government this week revealed it would raise permanent migration levels by 5000 people annually.
The Chamber of Commerce and Industry yesterday supported the Government's migration announcement, predicting Western Australia was still on course for a chronic shortfall of workers.
Chief executive James Pearson said Western Australia would fall 210,000 workers short by 2020.
A spokesman for Rio Tinto confirmed the recruitment program was for "thousands" of people. All positions were for projects that were already under way or which had received the green light.
The Chamber of Commerce and Industry yesterday supported the Government's migration announcement, predicting Western Australia was still on course for a chronic shortfall of workers.
Chief executive James Pearson said Western Australia would fall 210,000 workers short by 2020.
A spokesman for Rio Tinto confirmed the recruitment program was for "thousands" of people. All positions were for projects that were already under way or which had received the green light.
What JimLad says is true, but I'll repeat an oft-stated proposal of mine.
There are Treasury agreed Grade Descriptions (not job descriptions) for each CS grade. I suspect JimLad is a Grade C1. In old money, that (to me) is a Professional & Technology Officer Grade 1 or Senior Professional & Technology Officer. In the admin world it was a Senior Executive Officer. For an SPTO, the Grade Description required you to have the proven ability (not the potential) to manage 600 staff. And to be project manager of (a) a major programme or (b) scores of "minor" projects (bearing in mind the two require completely different, but equally demanding skills). "Experience" in the grade was deemed to be, for example, successful delivery of at least 100 "minor" projects (A ruling accepted by Trades Unions in the 90s).
Now, apply those criteria to everyone in DE&S today. How many C1s, or in fact ANYONE at a more senior grade, come remotely near meeting them? Got the picture? So why are they at that grade? That, in a nutshell, is why Servicemen have a generally poor opinion of CS.
But, who is to blame? Not the individual CS. Yes, there are wasters but there always will be. What if the RAF brass suddenly announced that (a) Promotion criteria is being ditched and (b) All pilots are being made redundant but you must carry on flying using anyone you can find. Effectively, that's what has happened in the CS.
There are Treasury agreed Grade Descriptions (not job descriptions) for each CS grade. I suspect JimLad is a Grade C1. In old money, that (to me) is a Professional & Technology Officer Grade 1 or Senior Professional & Technology Officer. In the admin world it was a Senior Executive Officer. For an SPTO, the Grade Description required you to have the proven ability (not the potential) to manage 600 staff. And to be project manager of (a) a major programme or (b) scores of "minor" projects (bearing in mind the two require completely different, but equally demanding skills). "Experience" in the grade was deemed to be, for example, successful delivery of at least 100 "minor" projects (A ruling accepted by Trades Unions in the 90s).
Now, apply those criteria to everyone in DE&S today. How many C1s, or in fact ANYONE at a more senior grade, come remotely near meeting them? Got the picture? So why are they at that grade? That, in a nutshell, is why Servicemen have a generally poor opinion of CS.
But, who is to blame? Not the individual CS. Yes, there are wasters but there always will be. What if the RAF brass suddenly announced that (a) Promotion criteria is being ditched and (b) All pilots are being made redundant but you must carry on flying using anyone you can find. Effectively, that's what has happened in the CS.
MoD CS, apart from the odd tosseur who might claim to be a 'Gp Capt equivalent' or whatever, provide pretty good value for money in support of the UK's Armed Forces.
A little banter is one thing, ignorant schadenfreude quite another....
Quite so, quite so: took me 35 years to get there, but yes, I sat above all the Wing Commanders, and below all the Group Captains, paid Group Captain messing, was paid a great deal less, was head of a large Met Branch BFG, and held a Dormant RAFVR commission as ........ Group Captain.
And yes, I once lived next door to the biggest "real" Group captain tosser imaginable: tried to ship the antique office desk to UK on service transport when his job was disestablished. Attempted theft: nobody but nobody turned a hair ......... that's a tosser.
And no, I never went on strike, and worked my balls off to serve the RAF.
Generalisations are generally inaccurate
A little banter is one thing, ignorant schadenfreude quite another....
Quite so, quite so: took me 35 years to get there, but yes, I sat above all the Wing Commanders, and below all the Group Captains, paid Group Captain messing, was paid a great deal less, was head of a large Met Branch BFG, and held a Dormant RAFVR commission as ........ Group Captain.
And yes, I once lived next door to the biggest "real" Group captain tosser imaginable: tried to ship the antique office desk to UK on service transport when his job was disestablished. Attempted theft: nobody but nobody turned a hair ......... that's a tosser.
And no, I never went on strike, and worked my balls off to serve the RAF.
Generalisations are generally inaccurate
"MoD CS, apart from the odd tosseur who might claim to be a 'Gp Capt equivalent' or whatever, provide pretty good value for money in support of the UK's Armed Forces"
The equivalent rank muppets are out there still - I find them as fun and interesting to deal with as the many retired RAF and other military personnel who continue to use their military rank long after they've left the service and gone into new jobs.
The issue is one that at its heart is very simple - namely that all three branches of the military, and the MOD CS all have ranks and grading systems with different titles. The 'equivalent rank' system simply translates the titles of these ranks/grades into a roughly unified structure so people know roughly how senior the military / CS they are dealing with is.
While some CS do get confused about the equivalency (drawn in part I suspect from working with a rank obsessed military culture), I do find it depressing that some military chose to ignore that many CS are actually very experienced, know what they are talking about and worked bloody hard to get to whatever grade they occupy. It is a little frustrating that some in the military appear to throw basic courtesy out of the window in joint environments, and where personnel perhaps treat a military SO1 with respect bordering on sucking up, while ignoring, or treating with contempt the CS (who could easily be their 1RO) who they see as untermensch.
The equivalent rank muppets are out there still - I find them as fun and interesting to deal with as the many retired RAF and other military personnel who continue to use their military rank long after they've left the service and gone into new jobs.
The issue is one that at its heart is very simple - namely that all three branches of the military, and the MOD CS all have ranks and grading systems with different titles. The 'equivalent rank' system simply translates the titles of these ranks/grades into a roughly unified structure so people know roughly how senior the military / CS they are dealing with is.
While some CS do get confused about the equivalency (drawn in part I suspect from working with a rank obsessed military culture), I do find it depressing that some military chose to ignore that many CS are actually very experienced, know what they are talking about and worked bloody hard to get to whatever grade they occupy. It is a little frustrating that some in the military appear to throw basic courtesy out of the window in joint environments, and where personnel perhaps treat a military SO1 with respect bordering on sucking up, while ignoring, or treating with contempt the CS (who could easily be their 1RO) who they see as untermensch.
langleybaston, old weather-guesser, it was those 'tosseurs' who flaunt their "I'm a Gp Capt equivalent" status about whom I was commenting.
Others may indeed hold such status, but they don't attempt to 'pull rank'.
Incidentally, newt, I found your comment somewhat cruel - it didn't really fall into the 'banter' category.
Others may indeed hold such status, but they don't attempt to 'pull rank'.
Incidentally, newt, I found your comment somewhat cruel - it didn't really fall into the 'banter' category.
BEagle: perhaps I am over-sensitive as a reaction to an institutionally-developed thick professional skin, now discarded.
"When I'm right, no-one remembers
When I'm wrong no-one forgets".
Look good on a headstone!
[my dad was an all-for-it, love it, RAFVR LAC all through the war, and my dearest wish [and I suspect his] was to join. Illness precluded this, and also even National Service. Before he died he dined with me in the Mess at JHQ ...... a big-hearted little man, he was 6 feet tall that day. Which is why it matters to me].
"When I'm right, no-one remembers
When I'm wrong no-one forgets".
Look good on a headstone!
[my dad was an all-for-it, love it, RAFVR LAC all through the war, and my dearest wish [and I suspect his] was to join. Illness precluded this, and also even National Service. Before he died he dined with me in the Mess at JHQ ...... a big-hearted little man, he was 6 feet tall that day. Which is why it matters to me].
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Ok, what started as an attempt to kick of a bit of light hearted banter has blown up in my face.
As my mum used to say, "if you pick at a scab, it will only get worse"
To all those CSs who have endured long careers and now looking for new pastures, I empaphise with the position you find yourself in.
My particular trade was MPA, we were globally regarded as the best only two years ago. Now apart from a select few scattered around other nations or wiping other fleets arses we have all been Binned.
The majority of the blame for the demise of this capability falls at the feet of CSs( high up the food chain I agree) and a certain Civilian Defense contractor.
To many of us the word Civilian is the new C word.
As my mum used to say, "if you pick at a scab, it will only get worse"
To all those CSs who have endured long careers and now looking for new pastures, I empaphise with the position you find yourself in.
My particular trade was MPA, we were globally regarded as the best only two years ago. Now apart from a select few scattered around other nations or wiping other fleets arses we have all been Binned.
The majority of the blame for the demise of this capability falls at the feet of CSs( high up the food chain I agree) and a certain Civilian Defense contractor.
To many of us the word Civilian is the new C word.
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Beags
There's nothing new in Newt's concept (or Clarkson's); the Romans did it after setbacks - selecting every 10th man to be topped (decimation in the proper sense, not total wipeout as is commonly used in speech today) - to encourage the troops. Great morale booster, eh?
Then there's the often partially quoted extract from Voltaire's Candide:
Dans ce pays-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les huître
"In this country [England], it is wise to kill an admiral from time to time to encourage the others"
(It was Admiral Byng wot got shot for not trying hard enough at the Battle of Minorca - 1756, I think)
Does this count as "banter"?
Mister B
There's nothing new in Newt's concept (or Clarkson's); the Romans did it after setbacks - selecting every 10th man to be topped (decimation in the proper sense, not total wipeout as is commonly used in speech today) - to encourage the troops. Great morale booster, eh?
Then there's the often partially quoted extract from Voltaire's Candide:
Dans ce pays-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les huître
"In this country [England], it is wise to kill an admiral from time to time to encourage the others"
(It was Admiral Byng wot got shot for not trying hard enough at the Battle of Minorca - 1756, I think)
Does this count as "banter"?
Mister B
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String vest, silly hat, big blingy belt buckle, white shoes....... Just had a message from Buster asking where can he enrol.
The equivalency issue is often misunderstood. At its most basic level, in a mixed Service/Civilian environment such as DE&S, every letter of appointment must detail the line management chain, including 1st/2nd/3rd Reporting Officers. Line Management chain and ROs are very often completely different people.
In procurement, for example, delegated financial approval levels are tied to rank/grade. (Financiers dont approve, they only endorse). Many times I have experienced situations where, because the equivalents have been ignored in team structure and letters of delegation, the senior officer has had to go to his junior to seek approval to commit funding which is plainly ludicrous.
The Treasury issued the Broad Equivalents table you may have seen. It is enshrined in the MoD Personnel Manual. The broad bit is significant. In HQ posts, a Wg Cdr is permitted to be the line manager of a CS Grade C1 (see above), but in non-HQ jobs they must hold jobs at the same level. However, unless the CS agrees to it, the Wg Cdr is not allowed to be his 1st Reporting Officer. Most CSs are content with this, but some will always moan and groan.
MoD(PE), DPA, DLO, DE&S etc have always had this problem, but the real effect, in my experience, is that you NEVER get a serving officer who has the experience and competence in this field demanded of his CS equivalent. (How many Wg Cdrs posted to DE&S as a project manager have already delivered 100 projects?) As a result, the CS dumbed down.
When you talk about equivalents, you must ALWAYS consider the fact that the same rules also say that if a serving officer does not have the necessary competence or experience to do his job, then his junior CS colleagues can be instructed to carry it out for him, without the benefit of extra resources or pay. This rule is often interpreted to include Doesnt want to do his job as well. This particular rule is a one-way street. A CS cannot dump his workload on an unsuspecting serving officer.
Two sides the story guys.
Of course, my main point is that MoD suffers these days because the CS has been dumbed down to such an extent there are very few remaining who can do their own jobs, at the correct grade. The way to raise the standard is to apply the mandated standards. Instead, MoD is often forking out twice the salary than the job deserves, for a poorer return; but in a few cases getting superb, effortless competence for peanuts. Read my post above and next time you meet ANY CS of Grade C2 and above in DE&S, ask them to tell you about their 20 most successful projects (because you havent time to listen to all 100+). Youll get blank looks.
In procurement, for example, delegated financial approval levels are tied to rank/grade. (Financiers dont approve, they only endorse). Many times I have experienced situations where, because the equivalents have been ignored in team structure and letters of delegation, the senior officer has had to go to his junior to seek approval to commit funding which is plainly ludicrous.
The Treasury issued the Broad Equivalents table you may have seen. It is enshrined in the MoD Personnel Manual. The broad bit is significant. In HQ posts, a Wg Cdr is permitted to be the line manager of a CS Grade C1 (see above), but in non-HQ jobs they must hold jobs at the same level. However, unless the CS agrees to it, the Wg Cdr is not allowed to be his 1st Reporting Officer. Most CSs are content with this, but some will always moan and groan.
MoD(PE), DPA, DLO, DE&S etc have always had this problem, but the real effect, in my experience, is that you NEVER get a serving officer who has the experience and competence in this field demanded of his CS equivalent. (How many Wg Cdrs posted to DE&S as a project manager have already delivered 100 projects?) As a result, the CS dumbed down.
When you talk about equivalents, you must ALWAYS consider the fact that the same rules also say that if a serving officer does not have the necessary competence or experience to do his job, then his junior CS colleagues can be instructed to carry it out for him, without the benefit of extra resources or pay. This rule is often interpreted to include Doesnt want to do his job as well. This particular rule is a one-way street. A CS cannot dump his workload on an unsuspecting serving officer.
Two sides the story guys.
Of course, my main point is that MoD suffers these days because the CS has been dumbed down to such an extent there are very few remaining who can do their own jobs, at the correct grade. The way to raise the standard is to apply the mandated standards. Instead, MoD is often forking out twice the salary than the job deserves, for a poorer return; but in a few cases getting superb, effortless competence for peanuts. Read my post above and next time you meet ANY CS of Grade C2 and above in DE&S, ask them to tell you about their 20 most successful projects (because you havent time to listen to all 100+). Youll get blank looks.
HTB, I don't actually understand how killing an admiral from time to time is going to encourage any oysters?
Or, since you're referring to Menorca, las escopiņas?
Or, since you're referring to Menorca, las escopiņas?
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Well at least you're awake; OK "autres" it is for the Friday pm eyelid droopers.
This is an extension of a ploy I have used in long and tedious reports (often of a technical nature) - insert randomly somewhere in the text "the polar bear climbed onto the ice floe and ate the penguin". Seldom spotted, or remarked upon, indicating that the report is not read, or is skimmed, or just too bl**dy boring to pay attention to the details (and also an unlikely occurence given their natural habitat).
Mister B
This is an extension of a ploy I have used in long and tedious reports (often of a technical nature) - insert randomly somewhere in the text "the polar bear climbed onto the ice floe and ate the penguin". Seldom spotted, or remarked upon, indicating that the report is not read, or is skimmed, or just too bl**dy boring to pay attention to the details (and also an unlikely occurence given their natural habitat).
Mister B
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Jimlad and Tuc have it pretty much spot on above. If you do get more than a blank look from asking Tucs question, the answer is likely to be about "delivering business change" or " improving process" . Most of the new crop of C grades will have MBAs or APM quals with no real engineering experience . This is due to the run down of in-house technical expertise and reliance on External Assistance without having anyone to spot that certain odour of BS.
It will only get worse if the preferred option of the ENDPB is adopted for the Materiel Strategy solution.
It will only get worse if the preferred option of the ENDPB is adopted for the Materiel Strategy solution.
Jimlad, tuc, Capt Pugwash, I'm afraid that your pearls of wisdom are cast before blind bigotry here. "Uniforms Good, Suits Bad!", seems to be the perceived wisdom prevailing, culminating in this notable example of the genre:-
As an outcome of an initiative taken back in 1987 it was a long time coming, I'll admit, but the initiative was dreamt up, formulated and executed with a brutal thoroughness that only a military mind could contemplate. The complete emasculation of a highly trained, qualified and experienced technical Staff is a tall order, yet that is exactly what that initiative has achieved. It may have taken nearly three decades to come to fruition but it will take an eternity to put right again.
My apologies though, I seem to have interrupted the harmless banter...
My particular trade was MPA, we were globally regarded as the best only two years ago. Now apart from a select few scattered around other nations or wiping other fleets arses we have all been Binned.
The majority of the blame for the demise of this capability falls at the feet of CSs( high up the food chain I agree) and a certain Civilian Defense contractor.
The majority of the blame for the demise of this capability falls at the feet of CSs( high up the food chain I agree) and a certain Civilian Defense contractor.
My apologies though, I seem to have interrupted the harmless banter...
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As an outcome of an initiative taken back in 1987 it was a long time coming, I'll admit, but the initiative was dreamt up, formulated and executed with a brutal thoroughness that only a military mind could contemplate.
What appalled me the most was the fact these staff officers were aircrew - not blunties. And yet the blunties get the dirty end of the stick for screwing around the operational stuff!
So I guess if you look really, really closely the demise of MPA (and a host of other stuff) was probably authored by the guy that used to sit in the left hand seat (or wherever) that you thought was a really good guy.
(They probably post on here as well and whinge away denying any culpability).
And, in the spirit of the original post.....the dealings that I had with MOD CS was excellent, particularly if you treated them as human and got them on-side. The RAF as whole scored quite a few favours on the pay and allowances side in those days which, perhaps, we shouldn't have done had the MOD CS obeyed the letter of the law. Thanks Barry if you are on this site.
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Originally Posted by Chugalug2
"Uniforms Good, Suits Bad!"
As an aside, I've always found it odd that Civil Servants are criticised for not being more "commercial" (and I don't mean Contracts wallahs) and "business centred" while trying to operate inside the straightjacket of Government Accounting Regulations.
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GBZ,
You're spot on wrt the relaxation of the so-called dress code.
On the other hand, look where the push to be more commercailly minded has taken us, with RAB and the crazy effects of the COCC (now thankfully stopped). Going back to the loss of expertise, whatever you think of its recent effectiveness (largely due to political direction) , the long tradition of tech costs, cost control and accounting could trace its heritage back to Samuel Pepys, but that has now been abandoned in favour of Strategic Partners and possible transition to an ENDPB.
You're spot on wrt the relaxation of the so-called dress code.
On the other hand, look where the push to be more commercailly minded has taken us, with RAB and the crazy effects of the COCC (now thankfully stopped). Going back to the loss of expertise, whatever you think of its recent effectiveness (largely due to political direction) , the long tradition of tech costs, cost control and accounting could trace its heritage back to Samuel Pepys, but that has now been abandoned in favour of Strategic Partners and possible transition to an ENDPB.
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Ah! cost control. In the olden days of cash account budgetting, we knew pretty well what would be spent and had been spent. The Liability, whether it be planned, pledged, incurred or discharged, was built into our material provisioning systems. Then, under government direction, RAB came along and the means of controlling liability was dismantled. Perhaps if it had still been in place, the grilling of Mrs Brennan that mmitch mentioned earlier might have turned out differently. I suspect that COCC might creep back in once the Bank of England base rate gets airborne again.
Interesting that you mention Samuel Pepys; the man who largely wrested control of Naval materiel support and supply away from the self interest of comercial contractors. Funny old world.
Interesting that you mention Samuel Pepys; the man who largely wrested control of Naval materiel support and supply away from the self interest of comercial contractors. Funny old world.
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GB, I hope we don't see COCC return, that in itself was largely responsible for the reluctance to properly provision for long term support spares etc.
And it sure is a funny old (small) world, I will be about 1 mile west of the Radstock VRP this evening, and if you are who I think you may be, I still have one of your wooden carvings and the wooden block number generator.
And it sure is a funny old (small) world, I will be about 1 mile west of the Radstock VRP this evening, and if you are who I think you may be, I still have one of your wooden carvings and the wooden block number generator
.